The Mugen Fighters Guild

CureichiEvil2610

Re: KoF XV

#2121 May 12, 2022, 02:42:30 am

I'm the Crazy Evil
Paramore is awesome AF

Macaulyn97 said, May 12, 2022, 02:23:50 am

It would certainly shatter most people's expectations.

Yeah. People barely remember characters like Alba Meira or his brother, Soiree Meira

Croix12

Re: KoF XV

#2122 May 12, 2022, 03:49:25 am

The Forsaken Warrior
Let us grieve existence, together.

I miss some of those guys... Would be great IMO but is not happening

GreenZed

Re: KoF XV

#2123 May 12, 2022, 04:59:01 am

I want Team Hizoku with Lin, Duo Lon and Xiao Lon playable all in the same game.

Kolossoni

Re: KoF XV

#2124 May 12, 2022, 09:09:03 am

하나뿐인 한국인 대표
Ambassador of MugenRevival

The only memorable characters from MI are Luise, Xiao, Duke and the Beart sisters imo.
But MI is non-canon anyway so the chances are highly unlikely.

TrinitroRoy

Re: KoF XV

#2125 May 12, 2022, 02:40:32 pm

Back to the Beginnings

...does SNK even own the rights to the MI characters anyway?

===My discord servers===
Unlimited Force HQ: https://discord.gg/hnyK7JZ
Mega Man Megamix Engine Help Server: https://discord.gg/Wjm9GYU

Touhou database (by Ryouchi):
http://mugenfreeforall.com/index.php?/topic/8257-touhou-project/

bitter nothings said, April 30, 2010, 09:35:51 pm

you are all small and can't grow manly sideburns

Macaulyn97

Re: KoF XV

#2126 May 12, 2022, 05:39:33 pm

Who else would?

Insert Account Name

Re: KoF XV

#2127 May 12, 2022, 10:26:42 pm

Alba and Soiree... Where are you, when we need you all?

Feel free to use my account:
Username: GTAguy
Password: imanigger

NDSilva

Re: KoF XV

#2128 May 12, 2022, 11:36:32 pm

CureichiEvil2610 said, May 12, 2022, 12:51:24 am

Hello there! What do you guys think about including a character from the Maximum Impact games?

I stand steady for the idea of giving new breath to the MI cast for quite some time, at this point... Unfortunately, both the stablished roster of KOF XV + rumours regarding the next DLC teams strongly indicates that SNK still wanna keep them buried in the past.

Like, for real... they're not even in KoF All Star, the game that manages to put freaking genderswaps and JOHN CENA as characters in there.

Kolossoni said, May 12, 2022, 09:09:03 am

But MI is non-canon anyway [...]

and so is grown up Rock Howard.

Putting it shortly - they could effortlessly just make a *new* backstory for those characters that fit into KOF current """""canon""""", if they really gave a shit about it.

Projects - Chars - Stages - Small Portraits

Kolossoni

Re: KoF XV

#2129 May 13, 2022, 12:16:53 am

하나뿐인 한국인 대표
Ambassador of MugenRevival

NDSilva said, May 12, 2022, 11:36:32 pm

they could effortlessly just make a *new* backstory for those characters that fit into KOF current """""canon""""", if they really gave a shit about it.

Because they lack agency.

Just like how 60+% of the KOF 14 characters like Sylvie were cut from 15, characters that lack presence in the story just don't seem important. Shun'ei isn't really popular, but the reason why he keeps being included in the franchise is because he's an integral part of the overall arc.

If MI characters were included with a retconned backstory, that'd be simply recycling character designs and would be deemed lazy on SNK's part.
So I doubt they'd want to open up another can of worms just to bring back familiar faces. As non-canon DLC? Maybe.

FYI: That's the same reason why grown up Rock is never canon or part of the main storyline and is always DLC.

GreenZed

Re: KoF XV

#2130 May 13, 2022, 02:27:18 am

Kolossoni said, May 13, 2022, 12:16:53 am

NDSilva said, May 12, 2022, 11:36:32 pm
they could effortlessly just make a *new* backstory for those characters that fit into KOF current """""canon""""", if they really gave a shit about it.

Because they lack agency.

Just like how 60+% of the KOF 14 characters like Sylvie were cut from 15, characters that lack presence in the story just don't seem important. Shun'ei isn't really popular, but the reason why he keeps being included in the franchise is because he's an integral part of the overall arc.

If MI characters were included with a retconned backstory, that'd be simply recycling character designs and would be deemed lazy on SNK's part.
So I doubt they'd want to open up another can of worms just to bring back familiar faces. As non-canon DLC? Maybe.

FYI: That's the same reason why grown up Rock is never canon or part of the main storyline and is always DLC.

I don't like arguing, but couldn't get over this statement. Agency and importance to the story, huh? Sure, characters like Terry, Ryo and K' are so important to the arc, because they are, uh... punch good? What? By your logic, KOFXV should only have Team Hero, Team Rival and, to a lesser extent, Team Ash. This is a tournament, not an overarching narrative focused on some bigger events, like in Netherrealm games (which is something, I have zero doubts, you would prefer in KOF over it's traditional way to tell it's story).

And that "recycling designs" argument. What?? This game is hellbent on maximum nostalgia pandering, to the point of throwing way it's tagline, making it sound hypocritical. And not only that, but, as a series, notorious for not aging anyone, it now hits it's characters with flanderization, devolving their personalities and the actual agency into something one dimensional. Look at Ryo spewing "karate karate karate" trite, like that fucking "muscle spirit" shit from SFV. And Ryo could move on! And he did! He is supposed to be Mr.Karate II already like in Buriki One and NGBC, since Takuma retired! But no, that would actually shatter someone's expectaions, so we can't have that.

And you know what's actually lazy? Not reusing desings, but reusing other assets, especially animation, and then selling it in a separate DLC. And while we are on topic of "recycling desings", have you ever heard of "fanservice"? I would prefer, if characters would grow over the series, but classic outfits can always be a DLC, if nothing else. And if they really can't bring characters from MI in their original attires, you can just redesign them. KoF is no stranger to this practice.

That being said, Soiree brothers, in my opinion, are a no go for KOFXV. Their story ended on a huge cliffhanger, and just plopping them in, handwaving past events, would be weird, to say the least. Duke is also not a very good candidate, since he is pretty much a russian (supposedly) man, who punches really hard, and KOFXV already has one. Can't imagine where would Luise storyline go without Soiree bros, either. But I wouldn't rule out other MI newcomers, who are worthy of note.

But for real, we're not getting them. That sudden Falcoon departure from SNK as MI3 was planned for 7th gen consoles, must've been result of something ugly happening behind the doors. It took how long SNK to get over Eolith? We would have to double that, and that would still be pretty generous.

/rant over

Kolossoni

Re: KoF XV

#2131 May 13, 2022, 04:12:37 am

하나뿐인 한국인 대표
Ambassador of MugenRevival

Characters like Terry, Ryo and K' are essential to the game, especially the latter as he was literally the main character from a previous arc. And my point still stands in regards to the agency part. We've lost characters like Kim, Daimon, Mature, Vice, Kensou, Chin and many others who were considered to be "staples" of the franchise in XV and the main reason why is because they simply did not make the cut due to lack of relevancy. The ones who made it like Ryo and Kula were just purely based on popularity (I'm not saying the cut characters aren't popular, but they're not as popular as some others).

Krohnen was aesthetically overhauled, but was still accepted by the community as his story was consistent with his old persona (K9999). MI characters will be the very opposite as much of their stories would have to be retconned (unless Jivatma returned, lol) and that'd be just silly.

On the topic of reusing animations, games like Tekken & Soul Calibur do the same thing and yet nobody says anything about them. Also, what's really wrong about bringing back old characters for DLC? It's not like the base game is free or smth. You're just paying for extra content.

(TL;DR)

Some characters have higher priority over others, especially in regards to story.
Characters which require story retcons are not favored over characters that only need visual updates.
Complaining about reusing old animations for DLC is unreasonable IMO.

I'm not arguing. I'm just voicing my honest opinion.

yaret

Re: KoF XV

#2132 May 13, 2022, 04:13:54 am

I want to learn, no criticize

TEAM SOUTH TOWN so extra custom are free.!

The best Dragon ball Mugen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzQkB1gVtXA
The best music I ever heard: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmVnhQvMV6U

Macaulyn97

Re: KoF XV

#2133 May 13, 2022, 04:30:48 am

Kolossoni said, May 13, 2022, 04:12:37 am

Complaining about reusing old animations for DLC is unreasonable IMO.

No, its fucking not, because they're literally selling stuff that is already done and should be in the base game, but we end up paying an extra price for it. Unless the character is extremely different, selling characters that simply reuse stuff is a scam. You mention Soul Calibur, but they at least changed movesets of characters from one game to another, specially in SC6, since most characters were returning from SC4 and needed updates, not to mention they didn't get away with selling Tira day 1 despite her being already done.

Kolossoni

Re: KoF XV

#2134 May 13, 2022, 04:41:48 am

하나뿐인 한국인 대표
Ambassador of MugenRevival

Macaulyn97 said, May 13, 2022, 04:30:48 am

Kolossoni said, May 13, 2022, 04:12:37 am
Complaining about reusing old animations for DLC is unreasonable IMO.
they're literally selling stuff that is already done and should be in the base game

That's quite a bold statement you're making.

Are you telling me that a game like KOF XV which has 39 characters in its base roster intended to have more but just decided to sell them as DLC to make a quick buck? As a reminder, KOF'98 had 38 characters in total and KOF'02 had 39 also.

Your logic will only make sense if the game literally held back content in order to sell more DLC, which is not the case.

I get that you have a distaste for DLCs in general, but like I said before, they're given a bad rep simply because they have a price tag on them. But in reality, it's like paying for an extra piece of bacon in your hamburger. The food itself is already prepared, but you're just paying for smth extra.

GreenZed

Re: KoF XV

#2135 May 13, 2022, 06:36:59 am

Kolossoni said, May 13, 2022, 04:12:37 am

Characters like Terry, Ryo and K' are essential to the game, especially the latter as he was literally the main character from a previous arc. And my point still stands in regards to the agency part. We've lost characters like Kim, Daimon, Mature, Vice, Kensou, Chin and many others who were considered to be "staples" of the franchise in XV and the main reason why is because they simply did not make the cut due to lack of relevancy. The ones who made it like Ryo and Kula were just purely based on popularity (I'm not saying the cut characters aren't popular, but they're not as popular as some others).

You're saying, that those characters were cut due to lack of agency and in the next sentence you say about how others were included "purely based on popularity". You know the reasons, why SNK include the characters they do, and yet you cling on to this "agency" thing. Saving development time, money and other resources sounds more plausible to me as the main reason of them being cut.

Also, is Antonov also essential? He is another character, that has barely anything to do in XV. "No agency", like you say, why bother bringing him back? That goes for his whole team, actually.

As for Kim being cut:

Quote

The other probable main reason of the character's non-inclusion in the initial roster is due to the recent death of the real Kim Kaphwan, founder of Viccom, a Korean company that for many years licensed SNK's games, and that inspired the fictional character.

From SNK Wiki. Also sounds a lot more plausible, then "agency".

Kolossoni said, May 13, 2022, 04:12:37 am

Krohnen was aesthetically overhauled, but was still accepted by the community as his story was consistent with his old persona (K9999). MI characters will be the very opposite as much of their stories would have to be retconned (unless Jivatma returned, lol) and that'd be just silly.

I have no idea, what makes you think so (the retcon part, not the silly part).

Kolossoni said, May 13, 2022, 04:12:37 am

Characters which require story retcons are not favored over characters that only need visual updates.

Mature and Vice in KOFXII-XIII say hi.

Kolossoni

Re: KoF XV

#2136 May 13, 2022, 07:33:07 am

하나뿐인 한국인 대표
Ambassador of MugenRevival

GreenZed said, May 13, 2022, 06:36:59 am

You're saying, that those characters were cut due to lack of agency and in the next sentence you say about how others were included "purely based on popularity". You know the reasons, why SNK include the characters they do, and yet you cling on to this "agency" thing. Saving development time, money and other resources sounds more plausible to me as the main reason of them being cut.

That's why I said:

Kolossoni said, May 13, 2022, 04:12:37 am

We've lost characters like [...] who were considered to be "staples" of the franchise in XV and the main reason why is because they simply did not make the cut due to lack of relevancy.

Meaning, when a character is not super popular to the point their relevance to the story could be ignored for the sake of being included, they have a higher chance of being cut from the roster. And I doubt any MI characters are as popular as Kim, Kensou, Mature & Vice and etc cuz if they're not getting in, MI characters sure aren't.

As for Antonov, yes he kind of is.
He hosted the previous KOF tournament back in XIV (was the sub-boss even). He has newer assets, overall likeable personality and gameplay so he was bound to return. He's like Adelheid of the newer arc.

In regards to Kim being cut, that is pure speculation and heresay that holds no value from the developers' perspective whatsoever.
The devs have stated that Kim might be able to return in Year 2 so I don't think his absence was solely to respect the death of the real Kim Kaphwan. If it was, Kim would never make it into the game even as DLC.

And on the topic of KOF MI, it's because the game literally takes place after Geese's death. It happens to be the same game where Rock is a full grown adult and Terry is a bit older too. Putting characters from that time period into the same game where Geese is alive is just weird knowing that KOF XV takes place before MI. Unless the characters are solely for gameplay-only, then:

Kolossoni said, May 13, 2022, 12:16:53 am

As non-canon DLC? Maybe.

Also, Mature and Vice's stories were not retconned. They weren't officially "dead" back in KOF'96 nor have they officially "revived" in XIII. They lurk in the shadows and make visages of themselves (this has been their thing for decades, haunting Iori in his dreams in KOF'97). They're still not humans but ghosts that can manifest into physical forms (backed by Duo Lon's intro in XIII).

Last Edit: May 13, 2022, 08:17:18 am by Kolossoni

Keku

Re: KoF XV

#2137 May 13, 2022, 08:04:36 am

EL FUCKO GRANDE
I'm back, nerds

Macaulyn97 said, May 13, 2022, 04:30:48 am

Kolossoni said, May 13, 2022, 04:12:37 am
Complaining about reusing old animations for DLC is unreasonable IMO.
Unless the character is extremely different, selling characters that simply reuse stuff is a scam.

There's a lot more to characters than reused and/or repurposed animations. Model reworks, completely new voice work, gameplay balancing, general adjustments and changes to make them stand out from their previous incarnations, etc. And I know people will complain about reused animations for DLC being a scam, but those complaints usually don't mean much as said people ignore the amount of work that goes in literally everything else, including all new VFX work. It just shows that one can be quite shortsighted.

Am I a bit bothered that my three faves from XIV were rendered DLC? At first, kinda. Now? Not really, no.
As someone who actually mained all three of these dudes, the changes on display are rather substantial and quite sick. Geese getting Nichirinzan again is especially appreciated. The only reason it even bothered me at all was because I would've loved to see Hein again since he was my absolute favorite newcomer from a gameplay perspective.

But yeah, nah. The topic of "should be in the base game" isn't so cut and dry either as the idea of those characters coming back could've been something that came later down the directorial line. That is usually the case for most fighting game DLC whether you like it or not.

Byakko

Re: KoF XV

#2138 May 13, 2022, 08:34:13 am

Kolossoni said, May 13, 2022, 07:33:07 am

The devs have stated that Kim might be able to return in Year 2 so I don't think his absence was solely to respect the death of the real Kim Kaphwan. If it was, Kim would never make it into the game even as DLC.

That's not right. The respect is just in delaying his appearance, it doesn't mean they have to retire the entire character. It happens regularly. Although I would think that it's an opportunity to move on to the kids already.

If I struggled to the end of my determination, to the end of my way of life with my followers, if the result is ruin, then this ruin is inevitable. Grieve. Shed tears. But you cannot regret.

Kolossoni

Re: KoF XV

#2139 May 13, 2022, 08:54:30 am

하나뿐인 한국인 대표
Ambassador of MugenRevival

Byakko said, May 13, 2022, 08:34:13 am

Kolossoni said, May 13, 2022, 07:33:07 am
The devs have stated that Kim might be able to return in Year 2 so I don't think his absence was solely to respect the death of the real Kim Kaphwan. If it was, Kim would never make it into the game even as DLC.
That's not right. The respect is just in delaying his appearance, it doesn't mean they have to retire the entire character. It happens regularly. Although I would think that it's an opportunity to move on to the kids already.

I wasn't really advocating on retiring Kim as a whole, but rather him staying out of 15 and returning in the next game. It would also be hypocritical to respect someone's death by not including a character for a year and bringing them back soon after as DLC.
Maybe it's just me, but that seems a little sketchy.

In fact, I think if SNK wanted to commemorate Mr. Kim's death with the utmost respect, I think they would've included Kim in honor of his literal motif's passing. It makes no sense for not including him.

All in all, this theory lacks consistency and solid evidence to even reach a conclusion.

Byakko

Re: KoF XV

#2140 May 13, 2022, 11:17:14 am

It's really not unheard of in Japan to delay something after an incident or death because it'd be bad press. I won't say anything about DLC, I'm just saying that a delay is common enough.

If I struggled to the end of my determination, to the end of my way of life with my followers, if the result is ruin, then this ruin is inevitable. Grieve. Shed tears. But you cannot regret.

Links to this post

KoF XV (Read 797808 times)

Re: KoF XV

Re: KoF XV

Re: KoF XV

Re: KoF XV

Re: KoF XV

Re: KoF XV

Re: KoF XV

Re: KoF XV

Re: KoF XV

Re: KoF XV

Re: KoF XV

Re: KoF XV

Re: KoF XV

Re: KoF XV

Re: KoF XV

Re: KoF XV

Re: KoF XV

Re: KoF XV

Re: KoF XV

Re: KoF XV