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Yagyu Jubei by Trololo - Released (Read 18776 times)

Started by Trololo, March 09, 2021, 09:16:24 am
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Yagyu Jubei by Trololo - Released
#1  March 09, 2021, 09:16:24 am
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Well, here. I made another character: Yagyu Jubei from the "Samurai Shodown" series. Hope you'll enjoy him!
Video by Gui Santos.

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Last Edit: March 12, 2021, 06:33:46 am by Trololo
Re: Yagyu Jubei by Trololo - Released
#2  March 09, 2021, 11:05:47 am
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Been a while since I tested a PotS style character, here's my feedback on him:
The dash dust on his forward/backwards dash is slightly misaligned.
-The forward run, Nikkaku Ratou and when he starts running on Geki Souran Jin and Issen is missing dash dust on the startup of the run animations.
-The effect on Nikkaku Ratou when it connects has shadows and reflections.
-The hitsparks have no envshake on Hasso Happa, Nikkaku Ratou, Yagyu Muni Raten and the 4th to last hits of Geki Souran Jin (All specials and supers have envshake on the hits, not just projectiles).
-Yagyu Sougetsu Jin completely goes through the opponent and does not hit them (It can't reflect projectiles either, so what does this ex special do?).
-The custom combo FX is misaligned when it used both in the ground or air (It should be placed where his hand or sword is).
-The first projectile when Zetsu Suigetsutou comes out does not hit the opponent, but EX Suigetsutou does (Makes it easily predicable to block it).

I'm not familiar with the character, but I can tell there are some things that need adjusting.
I will still do detail and aesthetic feedback for the rest.
Re: Yagyu Jubei by Trololo - Released
#3  March 09, 2021, 11:14:51 am
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Check out the Move Details as will enlighten you on some mentioned stuff.

I don't have any serious problems except one question:
Is it normal that the fight freezes entirely after guard-breaking with Yagyu Sougetsu Jin until you use the follow-up? It feels like it should last a couple of seconds as opposed to permanently and you can time them out with it.
WIP Schedule:
The next Street Fighter All-Stars update
Re: Yagyu Jubei by Trololo - Released
#4  March 09, 2021, 11:20:19 am
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SolidZone26: Thanks for the feedback.
-Well, with dash effects, shadows of the effects, CC FX positions, and EnvShake I have to agree and will fix.
-For Yagyu Sougetsu Jin you could read ReadMe. This move has a very specific way of use that's described there.
-Unfortunately, with Zetsu Suigetsutou's first projectile it's supposed to be like that. Would be glad to change it, but this move is too old and too constant to do so.

RagingRowen: difficulties of using enemy character's Guard Crush animation. Each creator makes them their own way: some characters have them as complete animations and some have them looped or -1'ed. For Jubei to freeze WAS intended though, since he is supposed to unfreeze when the enemy leaves the state (with the end of the animation, again). It was made to make sure he won't have an advantage from that single Guard Break.

Edit: updated with these fixes. RR, can you tell me, which character exactly was you fighting when it stuck?
Last Edit: March 09, 2021, 11:46:01 am by Trololo
Re: Yagyu Jubei by Trololo - Released
#5  March 09, 2021, 12:06:05 pm
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It was Jmorphman's Ken, who indeed has -1 on the last Crush frame.

I forgot to mention the empty Portrait folder as well.
WIP Schedule:
The next Street Fighter All-Stars update
Re: Yagyu Jubei by Trololo - Released
#6  March 09, 2021, 12:35:05 pm
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-For Yagyu Sougetsu Jin you could read ReadMe. This move has a very specific way of use that's described there.
Yeah, I looked at the readme in detail and just found out. But I have another problem with the move. Depending on the character, the opponent recovers too fast from the whiff and can block the Follow-Up (Rendering the move pointless). And like RagingRowen said, certain characters can get both of them permanently stuck.

Also, the dash effects that were added is still missing the dash sound effect too.

It was Jmorphman's Ken, who indeed has -1 on the last Crush frame.
It seems it affects all of Jmorphman's characters, even those that shares his code including KarmaCharmeleon, Knuckles8864 and DJMouF.
I will still do detail and aesthetic feedback for the rest.
Re: Yagyu Jubei by Trololo - Released
#7  March 09, 2021, 12:42:23 pm
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Yes, them recovering too fast is too part of the problem. Tell me, which exactly characters do that?
And yes, re-uploaded him again, with some characters listed in to fix the problem. The only way to more or less fix the problem is to butt the names in manually for each character it's not compatible with to break them out of the state by timing instead of animation's end. So all the reports about such instances with names of characters and their authors included are appreaciated.
Re: Yagyu Jubei by Trololo - Released
#8  March 09, 2021, 01:38:45 pm
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Yes, them recovering too fast is too part of the problem. Tell me, which exactly characters do that?
I tried it on PotS's Ryu. After trying it on others, it seems it uses the character's own guard break animation which some may not have one, which is also maybe why it causes the opponent to freeze depending on who. Won't having a custom state fix this?

And yes, re-uploaded him again, with some characters listed in to fix the problem. The only way to more or less fix the problem is to butt the names in manually for each character it's not compatible with to break them out of the state by timing instead of animation's end. So all the reports about such instances with names of characters and their authors included are appreaciated.
So there's no guarantee the move will work on any character? It seems like it also happens on these characters after updating:
-DeathScythe's R. Mika
-DJMouF's Goku, Vegeta & Bardock
-Fausto Mugen's Vega
-KarmaCharmeleon's Yang & Yun
-MEMO's Terry (RagingRowen's edit)
-Sennou-Room's Hisui & Mech Hisui 404
-Victory's Evil Ken

There may be more, but this shows how this move may not be reliable due to the freezing issue. I have no problems with Jubei's other moves except that one.

And the running animations that now have the dash dust is still missing sound effect (110,0).
I will still do detail and aesthetic feedback for the rest.
Re: Yagyu Jubei by Trololo - Released
#9  March 09, 2021, 01:51:11 pm
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Not exactly. The character's state is exactly a custom state, and the ones who don't have Guard Crash anim (or the ones who has it but under the wrong number) will use a Universal animation instead, which is absolutely stable, making the ones who don't have the anim absolutely reliable victims. What I didn't expect is that there will be so many problems with the ones who HAS it...
Thanks for the names. I will put them in.
Edit: about the sound effect, it's just nowhere to put. Just tried that out, it gets mixed and lost with step sounds. So, I guess, there is no real use in adding it...
Last Edit: March 09, 2021, 01:59:18 pm by Trololo
Re: Yagyu Jubei by Trololo - Released
#10  March 09, 2021, 02:17:16 pm
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Edit: about the sound effect, it's just nowhere to put. Just tried that out, it gets mixed and lost with step sounds. So, I guess, there is no real use in adding it...

Why not remove or change the channel number? A similar issue happens with some specials where the hitsparks are blocked out by swing or dash sounds.
WIP Schedule:
The next Street Fighter All-Stars update
Re: Yagyu Jubei by Trololo - Released
#11  March 09, 2021, 02:20:37 pm
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Pal, that much I know already. I meant exactly what I meant: it's mixing up with step sounds. Not interrupted by them, but becomes barely hearable because steps take your attention over it.
Re: Yagyu Jubei by Trololo - Released
#12  March 09, 2021, 03:25:25 pm
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Not exactly. The character's state is exactly a custom state, and the ones who don't have Guard Crash anim (or the ones who has it but under the wrong number) will use a Universal animation instead, which is absolutely stable, making the ones who don't have the anim absolutely reliable victims. What I didn't expect is that there will be so many problems with the ones who HAS it...
It kinda sucks you have to do it that way as it feels tedious and there may be issues if you attempt to use that move on a non-PotS style character as there's no guarantee if they will freeze or not. I only stuck with PotS style characters as it's shares the gameplay and who knows how bad it will be if you had to do it for every single one as it's a 50/50 chance. Not everyone who isn't experienced with M.U.G.E.N coding will take the time to modify the character checker.

Instead of being specific with the character names and the author, why not just use the author's names only that you know for all? Some of the author's characters do not freeze, but some do such as Falcon Rapper and varo_hades for example. I can't say for certain unless they are tested with it personally. If they do release a new character in the future, at least you'll know for sure they won't freeze. But an exception are author names with two people should be specific such as Chazzanova & Dampir's K'.

Also, Fausto Mugen's Vega still doesn't work has it as I looked at the special.st and you didn't space his name.

Pal, that much I know already. I meant exactly what I meant: it's mixing up with step sounds. Not interrupted by them, but becomes barely bearable because steps take your attention over it.
If you don't want to do it for the special moves, that's fine. It's just that when I start doing the "forward run" with any PotS style character, the sound always plays the moment the dash dust comes out.
I will still do detail and aesthetic feedback for the rest.
Re: Yagyu Jubei by Trololo - Released
#13  March 09, 2021, 03:39:13 pm
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Re: Yagyu Jubei by Trololo - Released
#14  March 09, 2021, 04:25:57 pm
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While I didn't play SS too much, I remember Jubei being one of the chars I liked. I'll try him out and get back with you. As for the animation problem: I figure you could just make it absolute with your custom state for it. Rather than have it check for p2's own guard break state. If nothing else, that should work overall. I suppose until you can maybe set it up to work with their guard break states. That will ensure it doesn't freeze anyone until/if that time comes.
Last Edit: March 09, 2021, 04:34:48 pm by DW
Re: Yagyu Jubei by Trololo - Released
#15  March 09, 2021, 04:54:55 pm
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While I didn't play SS too much, I remember Jubei being one of the chars I liked. I'll try him out and get back with you. As for the animation problem: I figure you could just make it absolute with your custom state for it. Rather than have it check for p2's own guard break state. If nothing else, that should work overall. I suppose until you can maybe set it up to work with their guard break states. That will ensure it doesn't freeze anyone until/if that time comes.

It doesn't work with their states, but their animations; maybe it's not exactly what Trololo is looking for, but my solution for it would be to check for 5911 as well (the Guard Crush ending state) instead of just checking for characters with looping guard crush animations.

Spoiler: The fix in question (click to see content)

DW

Re: Yagyu Jubei by Trololo - Released
#16  March 09, 2021, 05:16:36 pm
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I'll probably have more when I sit down with him, perhaps after work. For now, here's some initial stuff:

-Why does his turn animation last so long?
-Rolling lasts too long as well. Any time you use this, you're pretty much setting yourself up to get hit/thrown. Especially for forward roll.
-Can't super cancel from his projectiles?
-Why does EX projectile behave that way up close? At the very least, it should still knock p2 down on hit. I don't understand the reasoning behind making something like this less effective/straight up behave different for using it closer. And since you can't SC from it(it feels like), it makes it even worse. And I don't understand why.
-His Lv3 is pretty bad. Who will you hit with this? I'm assuming it's unblockable in the air? Though comes out WAY too slow because of the first swipe animation that implies it is a hit:

Quote
- Unlike EX Suigetsutou, Zetsu Suigetsutou's first projectile DOES NOT HIT! So don't expect easy combos with this move.

^If I'm spending the meter, why not? Unless someone just jumps into this, you make a perfect read, or some other unlikely scenario, his Lv3 just exists just to exist. I need to know the reasoning behind making meter moves less effective. It's not easy anyway, because he has to be close.

I don't have the time now, but I'm pretty sure I'll be back with more. Overall though, he feels nice.
Re: Yagyu Jubei by Trololo - Released
#17  March 09, 2021, 11:16:00 pm
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Thanks, DW.
I get your feedback, but for most of it, I have just one word: accuracy.
Roll and turn animations are manually counter frame-by-frame, and goddamn LVL3 super always worked that way in the games too. Sure, I had my steps away from accuracy here and there, and with EX Projectile I indeed am wrong, but I tried to make him as close to his "SamSho 5 Special" incarnation as possible, with certain changes to make him feel more like CvS2 adaptation though.
About super cancel from projectiles: I'm still not sure if I shall really add it. I'll think about it.

DW

Re: Yagyu Jubei by Trololo - Released
#18  March 10, 2021, 02:56:38 am
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I don't think it's the best idea to use exact animations timings/frames from a game like SS, when you're making the char in a CVS format. Whether it be a turn, walk, roll or w/e. Hoahmaru and Nakoruru do not have exact frame timings from their SS incarnations. These things were adapted to give all the chars a more Capcom feel. All and all, I'll change all these things myself, but I want to leave you with something Kamekaze told me when working on Kyosuke:

In source, Kyosuke's SCK special has no invul at all. I've recently changed this, because Kame told me:

"the beauty of mugen is that we can correct mistakes"

At the end of the day, you do what you feel is best. You've done good work and I'm not suggesting otherwise. Just giving my input.
Re: Yagyu Jubei by Trololo - Released
#19  March 10, 2021, 08:02:21 am
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"the beauty of mugen is that we can correct mistakes"

TBH, that actually sounded inspiring...
Welp, another update is up, with stuff DW mentioned:
-Sped up Turn and Roll animations. Have to say, though, that Turns being slow didn't really create problems, since anyway turning is overlayed by other actions when they're done.
-Added Super Cancel for Suigetsutou and EX Suigetsutou. Though will say, that it lasts for as long as the state of the move lasts, so no Cancel from another end of the screen.
-And yeah, this one I'm really glad I AM allowed to edit after all: changed Zetsu Suigetsutou's first spark from un-contactable to contactable, meaning it's now combo-worthy. TBH, I REALLY wanted to do this, but yeah, wanted to be more accurate.
-And the unfortunate one: due to serious technical issues with these goddamn Guard Break animations, I've had to resort to stopping the enemy from using Guard Crash when he is hit by Yagyu Sougetsu Jin, meaning he'll always use the universal animation. This sucks, but can't be helped, I can't be checking every P.o.T.S. styled character out to seek out who has it the right way and who hasn't.
Re: Yagyu Jubei by Trololo - Released
#20  March 10, 2021, 12:06:13 pm
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Yes more samurai showdown chars with these hitsparks....

I've dreamed with the day that cham cham gets the same treatment, i need her for my SNK HEROINES.