Off-Topic => All That's Left => Topic started by: Amy on August 13, 2017, 12:32:51 am
Title: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Amy on August 13, 2017, 12:32:51 am
Why would anyone even THINK that now when minorities are taking their RIGHTFUL place in society (something they should've done long ago or not have needed to do it AT ALL) "white supremacists" get all bitten because of that thinking anyone is going to "replace" them?
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Jmorphman on August 13, 2017, 12:35:38 am
More recently today, a car slammed into a group of counter-protestors, killing one and leaving nineteen people injured. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/fights-in-advance-of-saturday-protest-in-charlottesville/2017/08/12/155fb636-7f13-11e7-83c7-5bd5460f0d7e_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_no-name%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.18dd77d98778)
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: The Sudden Rarity on August 13, 2017, 12:37:52 am
I've been hearing about this bullshit all day. What the actual hell is going on? Rhetorical question, by the way.
I hear it's over a statue, but other sources say it's other reasons.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Foobs on August 13, 2017, 01:10:04 am
The first 15 or so minutes are pretty bland but shit gets increasingly tense. Sadly cuts off just as the violence starts.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Erroratu on August 13, 2017, 01:11:49 am
Didn't they also knock down a helicopter? http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/2-dead-in-virginia-state-police-helicopter-crash-near-charlottesville-protests/article/2631372 Edit 2: removed past message as my sources were seemingly untrustable
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Dumanios on August 13, 2017, 09:01:29 pm
Ivanka Trump has condemned (http://www.newsweek.com/ivanka-and-donald-trump-finally-condemn-nazis-650218) the white supremacists and Nazis causing a mess in Charlottesville.
This occurred a day after Trump's half-hearted condemnation of 'many sides'. (http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/12/politics/trump-charlottesville-statement/index.html)
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Byakko on August 13, 2017, 09:21:01 pm
Someone else from the White house (not sure who) also continued Trump's initial comment and added that "of course" this included specifically the White supremacists, neo nazis and KKK. Still not Trump himself and the White House has to send other people for damage control putting words in his mouth. Also, there's a Twitter account (@YesYoureRacist) hunting down and publicly outing the people who participated in the protest.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Seadragon77 on August 13, 2017, 09:28:56 pm
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Erroratu on August 13, 2017, 10:08:44 pm
It started off as a proper "Why you fucking with our history" protest but the second the left decided to make a counter movement,the original side was filled with people just looking for a scrap IIRC At this point its been reduced to autist vs autist tho
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Byakko on August 13, 2017, 10:13:32 pm
They were shouting "you will not replace us" during the protest. This isn't about history or counter movement or just looking for a fight, this is legit full on bottom of the barrel.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Do not even ask on August 13, 2017, 10:45:12 pm
It started off as a proper "Why you fucking with our history" protest but the second the left decided to make a counter movement,the original side was filled with people just looking for a scrap IIRC At this point its been reduced to autist vs autist tho
ah the good ol south park "both sides are wrong" mentality, i love it maggle
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Erroratu on August 13, 2017, 11:06:38 pm
uhhhh Excuse me?
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Mechy on August 13, 2017, 11:14:20 pm
"Autists" is not applicable here at all.
Exactly what did the "left" do in this scenario that supposedly makes them as bad/dumb as the right? The orginal rally is literally just white supremacist proudly proclaiming that they are that. And they are the ones that fucking killed someone during this thing.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Erroratu on August 13, 2017, 11:31:18 pm
Ah,you're right Sorry Leftist twitter shitposting suprisingly got me a bit riled up
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Niitris on August 13, 2017, 11:37:58 pm
The likes of Antifa got it right for a change. Nothing wrong with them counter protesting against legitimate white supremacists.
Also yeah, they're not the ones who had someone use a car as a mass killing machine.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: The Sudden Rarity on August 14, 2017, 02:50:47 am
I thought the statue was being relocated?
Either way, this protest fell swiftly into a brawl.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Gennos on August 14, 2017, 12:57:14 pm
https://twitter.com/YesYoureRacist this man is a saint. also show those pictures to the shit heads who rationalize white nationals march as peaceful: (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DHE4DGQW0AAwjQn.jpg) (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DHHpLjZXYAE3VCQ.jpg)
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Titiln on August 14, 2017, 02:23:22 pm
internet mob justice is a great thing, they are super accurate and never target the wrong person by accident http://www.wikihow.com/Roll-Your-Eyes
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Jango on August 14, 2017, 02:26:24 pm
/me sees he has a Patreon and makes more than $200/month through it
Granted that's not paying the bills anytime soon (although I can't see how much he's actually making, so maybe he can???) but come on, THAT much to look at tweets?
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Foobs on August 14, 2017, 04:47:59 pm
I'm pretty sure that guy is taking group photos, running them through a facial recognition software like facebook's and then posting the names of the people they match if they have anything pro-right on social media. He's casting a wide net, so there's a decent chance he'll fuck up.
When pol was hunting the bike lock antifa (he's facing criminal charges now) they had to piece together partial shots to get an accurate picture. Keep in mind that was one group of people looking for an individual, and not the other way around.
(http://i.imgur.com/VCWHQVp.jpg)
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Gennos on August 14, 2017, 05:56:07 pm
he did actually make a mistake with one of them. but he corrected it right away. still a saint tho, those fuckers deserve to be outed to the world and their employers. and thats not doxxing either, because they have no expectation of privacy when they themselves marched in public.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Titiln on August 14, 2017, 06:41:32 pm
search for and publish private or identifying information about (a particular individual) on the Internet, typically with malicious intent.
?????????
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Byakko on August 14, 2017, 07:08:05 pm
Doxxing is much more commonly taking an anonymous profile and posting private identifying information AFAIK. This is people walking out in the street, they're not anonymous when they're in the streets, it's a public place. But it's still about posting private info on the Internet. Other than that I myself don't even see it as relevant to nitpick about whether you want or don't want to call it doxxing. (is it called doxxing if you take a random celebrity and publish info about where they live ? If yes, then that's what it's like)
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Foobs on August 14, 2017, 07:25:29 pm
I wouldn't call posting people's public social media accounts doxing. If anything he isn't even exposing people properly, all these guys have to do is change their profile pictures and maybe delete some recent stuff. He should take more screencaps and archive everything instead of halfassing the job if he wants some patreonbux.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Snakebyte on August 15, 2017, 12:07:20 am
This whole thing was fucked up from several angles. The white supremacists, like it or not, had the right to protest peacefully and they'll be suing the city for trying to shut their event down, and entirely correct in doing so. The news coverage is fucked in that it's acting like only the white supremacists were violent, when Antifa and fuck knows else were there with weapons as well, looking for just as much of a fight. And now, Discord has shut down the major alt-right discord, and GoDaddy and Google took down the Daily Stormer, which regardless of how justified you think that is (the second one is looking pretty damn justified, not sure about the first yet) is going to get people justifiably up in arms about how they're being censored and persecuted.
This was a clusterfuck. The white supremacists were terrible and I'm not trying to defend them, but they're being portrayed like they were the only ones being terrible, and that's just going to end up emboldening them because they'll be able to spin it to their followers as an attack on white people in general.
Also, as far as I'm aware the helicopter deaths were a pure fluke. Equipment failure or something. The car deaths appear to be an alt-right guy intentionally trying to kill far-left people.
I'm looking at this entire thing and frankly we're just all fucked in so many ways now. Fuck.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Thedge on August 15, 2017, 12:23:06 am
The white supremacists were terrible and I'm not trying to defend them, but they're being portrayed like they were the only ones being terrible
I find your phrasing there really disturbing, you could replace "but" by an "and" to not sound like you are indeed defending them. Asking for fairness in this kind of matter seems really off, any normal human being wouldn't allow a nazi parade in their city.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Snakebyte on August 15, 2017, 12:26:30 am
You don't have the right to stop people you don't like from gathering, no matter how much you don't like them. It's a first amendment thing. I'm not going to police my phrasing for some kind of purity test, if you can't take my words at face value you were never going to listen to me anyway.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Shocksconstant on August 15, 2017, 01:47:10 am
Can't wait till Isis and al-qaeda finally clean up their act and start prancing up and down streets calling out "infidels" but with permission from a city or whatever to do so cause I know at least somebody will understand them.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Foobs on August 15, 2017, 02:00:53 am
You're aware anyone can preach hateful Islamic extremism in the streets of America right now?just like how the Westboro Baptist Church preaches hateful Christian extremism in public.
You can even publicly praise ISIS and the authorities won't do shit unless they can prove you have ties to ISIS.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Shocksconstant on August 15, 2017, 02:35:50 am
But if you openly claim to be a member and go out in the street screaming fuck the US or whatever do you honestly think it'd be "all good" and "they have the right to" despite being an international threat. If one group is considered a terrorist organization, then it shouldn't matter however long ago or if times have changed with them or not they should still be treated as such which why I don't understand the level of "empathy" alot of these supremacist groups keep getting.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Prime SC on August 15, 2017, 03:20:21 am
They get empathy cuz a racist is the president.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Foobs on August 15, 2017, 04:13:46 am
But if you openly claim to be a member and go out in the street screaming fuck the US or whatever do you honestly think it'd be "all good" and "they have the right to" despite being an international threat.
If self procalimed affiliation to a criminal group were a crime in and of itself illegal the penitentary system would be chock-full with retarded teenagers who take pictures of themselves doing gang signs and post them on social media.
Quote
If one group is considered a terrorist organization, then it shouldn't matter however long ago or if times have changed with them or not they should still be treated as such which why I don't understand the level of "empathy" alot of these supremacist groups keep getting.
Nobody is sympathetic to these larper spastics and their tiki torches, fuck them. Even other right wing nutjobs are trying to distance themselves from this shitshow by claiming it was staged by George fucking Soros (they seriously believe this shit).
But defending impopular, hateful and downright retarded speech is an integral part of free speech, and that's why jurists and civil rights advocates have always supported unsavory people and their inalienable rights to say stupid shit on principle. Vox (from all places) published a decent article on this:
Without free speech protections, all civil rights advocacy could be shut down by the people in power, precisely because government doesn’t agree with the ideas activists advance. That was true of the civil rights fights of the past, it’s true of the movements facing pitched battles today, and it will be true of the movements of the future that are still striving to be heard.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Shocksconstant on August 15, 2017, 04:52:54 am
See I'm not comparing ideals of free speech, I'm comparing the fact that this group had Neo Nazi's and KKK members who are in the United States considered a terrorist organization similar to Isis, similar to al-qaeda. What I did was simply give them an equivalence that would almost certainly not be accepted at any point and time in the near future but its "fine" for them.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Gennos on August 15, 2017, 05:22:11 am
See I'm not comparing ideals of free speech, I'm comparing the fact that this group had Neo Nazi's and KKK members who are in the United States considered a terrorist organization similar to Isis, similar to al-qaeda. What I did was simply give them an equivalence that would almost certainly not be accepted at any point and time in the near future but its "fine" for them.
Neo nazis and KKK aren't considered terrorist groups, otherwise Illinois' senate wouldn't have to pass a new law for that. The federal goverment never had to brand them as such to keep tabs on them back when the klan had a half million members, hate crime laws were effective enough. And they don't need it now the klan is 5,000 nobodies scattered all across America without a central leadership or a coherent agenda.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Shocksconstant on August 15, 2017, 06:09:04 am
They may not be officially dub terrorist, though any former acts of violence they've commited in the past are almost all ways listed under domestic terrorism, their still given the "okay" despite their history.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Snakebyte on August 15, 2017, 06:27:59 am
The white supremacists, like it or not, had the right to protest peacefully
lol
Naw that wasn't a slip-up. They were protesting peacefully and then the VA police tried to make them disperse. The non-peaceful actions--including the, y'know, car murder--came hours after that. I know most sane people probably don't give a shit, but their rights were violated by the state before any of the carnage went down. They're suing and they'll win, even if public opinion will be as against them as it is possible to be.
This is... one of the most monumentally ridiculous cases of being 'technically correct' I've ever seen, but it's the way it went.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Prime SC on August 15, 2017, 06:42:10 am
Or the black guy that got his head beat in, did that also come hours after? What about the white lady they killed? U so fucking ignorant.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Mechy on August 15, 2017, 07:24:17 am
Im glad Snakebyte took the time off from from considering the EU a facist state to remind us all that the rampant racists and neo nazis have all the right in the world to organize and speak out about how they think minorities don't deserve to live and should all be murdered en mass. Glad you got our back there buddy.
Anyway... (http://i.imgur.com/M8PRqBL.png)
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Byakko on August 15, 2017, 08:20:52 am
When seeing that Trump wouldn't condemn the far right, a few republican senators have asked for the car killing to be named for what it was : a domestic terror attack. If you think the protest was peaceful, you're delusional, it always leads to violence. You only need to look at the people who came to the protest in full army gear (weapons included) and full body armor and whatnot. And the next picture is those same guys in body armor with riot shields surrounding one Black guy on the ground beating his head in with sticks. Calling it peaceful is just fucking nuts.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Gennos on August 15, 2017, 12:43:30 pm
The white supremacists, like it or not, had the right to protest peacefully
lol
Naw that wasn't a slip-up. They were protesting peacefully and then the VA police tried to make them disperse. The non-peaceful actions--including the, y'know, car murder--came hours after that. I know most sane people probably don't give a shit, but their rights were violated by the state before any of the carnage went down. They're suing and they'll win, even if public opinion will be as against them as it is possible to be.
This is... one of the most monumentally ridiculous cases of being 'technically correct' I've ever seen, but it's the way it went.
(https://www.thewrap.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/charlottesville-1.jpg) your nazi friends. they don't deserve freedom when they proudly motion a sign that signifies race superiority. they don't deserve freedom when they scream "blood and soil" and "you will not replace us". they don't deserve freedom when they fucking demand ethnic cleansing and beat up black bypassers. fuck their freedom.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Person Man on August 15, 2017, 01:16:00 pm
You all should know better than to try and engage Snakebyte in a political discussion by now. History shows he only ever shows up in threads like these when he thinks he can score an easy "ha ha take that liberals" moment and then skitters off before he's forced to actually say anything substantive
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Melcore on August 15, 2017, 01:57:59 pm
You all should know better than to try and engage Snakebyte in a political discussion by now. History shows he only ever shows up in threads like these when he thinks he can score an easy "ha ha take that liberals" moment and then skitters off before he's forced to actually say anything substantive
snakebyte is probably the most objective person in this forum. I've seen no evidence of him being full of shit. I think it's safe to say that we all REALLY FUCKING HATE white supremacy and anyone like them but saying they have the right to protest does not mean they are being shown sympathy.
Legally they have the right to a peaceful protest as long as it remains peaceful, just like antifa.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Foobs on August 15, 2017, 02:27:52 pm
your nazi friends. they don't deserve freedom when they proudly motion a sign that signifies race superiority. they don't deserve freedom when they scream "blood and soil" and "you will not replace us". they don't deserve freedom when they fucking demand ethnic cleansing and beat up black bypassers. fuck their freedom.
The ball won't always be in your court. If you want to change the rules to harm these assholes the same thing could easily be done you later.
You all should know better than to try and engage Snakebyte in a political discussion by now. History shows he only ever shows up in threads like these when he thinks he can score an easy "ha ha take that liberals" moment and then skitters off before he's forced to actually say anything substantive
You don't see anything disingenuous at all after coming to this thread, scoring an easy "ha ha take that Snakebyte" moment and then skittering off before saying anything substantive about the topic at hand, do you?
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: JustNoPoint on August 15, 2017, 02:34:25 pm
Snakebyte is really not saying anything crazy here. People got to stop tearing other's words apart being nitpicky.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Erroratu on August 15, 2017, 02:44:44 pm
I can't find anything about this so I'm asking here,why do they salute with their left hands? IIRC both the nazi and the Roman salute is done only with the right hand up,is using the left hand a thing that means something or do these dudes not know how to even do it properly?
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Byakko on August 15, 2017, 02:56:48 pm
I can't find anything about this so I'm asking here,why do they salute with their left hands? IIRC both the nazi and the Roman salute is done only with the right hand up,is using the left hand a thing that means something or do these dudes not know how to even do it properly?
Picture might just be flipped.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Byakko on August 15, 2017, 02:57:57 pm
Nah, the text on the ground that says Jesus love isn't flipped. They probably just wanted to look pretty from this angle. There are other pictures with people in the same protest doing the salute with the right hand, it doesn't look like the left hand means anything special.
your nazi friends. they don't deserve freedom when they proudly motion a sign that signifies race superiority. they don't deserve freedom when they scream "blood and soil" and "you will not replace us". they don't deserve freedom when they fucking demand ethnic cleansing and beat up black bypassers. fuck their freedom.
The ball won't always be in your court. If you want to change the rules to harm these assholes the same thing could easily be done you later.
I don't know about the US but there are a bunch of Western countries where hate speech isn't protected by free speech, it's a crime. The US is the one that's fucked up when trying to protect their amendments at all cost even in these extreme situations.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Foobs on August 15, 2017, 02:59:21 pm
I can't find anything about this so I'm asking here,why do they salute with their left hands? IIRC both the nazi and the Roman salute is done only with the right hand up,is using the left hand a thing that means something or do these dudes not know how to even do it properly?
obvious Soros shills
What, you're implying the guys using tiki torches in a white pride march don't know what they're doing?
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: JustNoPoint on August 15, 2017, 03:29:35 pm
You mean apart from saying the white supremacy protest was peaceful ?
I think the logic I'm about to say next is wholly stupid but this is USA FUCK YEAH so here goes
All that weaponry they brought? It's still a peaceful protest until someone uses one. You have to remember that there are tons of ppl in the US that find being a walking military force is an absolutely normal thing and most companies and politicians feed this.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Byakko on August 15, 2017, 03:41:57 pm
Well it's legal but anyone looking at it from the outside and without US-colored glasses should immediately know that it's not a peaceful protest when you bring weapons, regardless of the laws in place or whether you actually intend to use them or not. An American might defend that, but it doesn't make it any less stupid because America is actually, factually and objectively wrong.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Person Man on August 15, 2017, 04:07:29 pm
You all should know better than to try and engage Snakebyte in a political discussion by now. History shows he only ever shows up in threads like these when he thinks he can score an easy "ha ha take that liberals" moment and then skitters off before he's forced to actually say anything substantive
You don't see anything disingenuous at all after coming to this thread, scoring an easy "ha ha take that Snakebyte" moment and then skittering off before saying anything substantive about the topic at hand, do you?
What, I'm supposed to skip on my job to argue with people online or something?
I'm just saying, guy's got an m.o. and everyone knows it. I figured it's prudent to remind everyone about it before the thread devolves into another shitstorm, because it's happened before and it will happen again
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: JustNoPoint on August 15, 2017, 04:08:11 pm
Well it's legal but anyone looking at it from the outside and without US-colored glasses should immediately know that it's not a peaceful protest when you bring weapons, regardless of the laws in place or whether you actually intend to use them or not. An American might defend that, but it doesn't make it any less stupid because America is actually, factually and objectively wrong.
I can agree with that to an extent. But I come from an area where the majority will not. I'm saying people shouldn't tear down SnakeByte because he's coming from a different view. The US may be overly lenient on freedom of speech. But that's debatable how good or bad that is. For this scenario I agree with you. But it's a slippery slope when you start cracking down. Technically it may be good to allow idiots like this to do their thing but the gun culture here is what makes it the most dangerous. Freedom of speech combined with rights to have weaponry should probably not be allowed to go together in instances like this.
I don't have those answers but the fact remains that SnakeByte wasn't saying anything objectively untrue in regards to the situation in the culture it's taking place.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Gennos on August 15, 2017, 04:15:41 pm
it boggles the mind how you guys can say that it was a peaceful march. do you have no empathy for other races? okay, lets go with this scenario... assume that you're black, minding your own business and suddenly you see this: (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DHB_EJSUQAEryhn.jpg) you ask this fine gentleman who wears glasses in the night why is he doing this? after all we're in america where everyone is equal and he responds with "blood and soil" and "you will not replace us". are you gonna watch as this person and hundreds like him demand white supremacy be brought back. this person who doesn't care about the struggles and the hardships that your ancestors had to endure to free themselves of slavery and abuse, and he probably wouldn't mind inflicting it upon you again. will you just stand by and do nothing?
tl:dr how the fuck can their march be peaceful when their whole goal is to create conflict and advocate racism. do you seriously expect black people to sit idly and watch?
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Niitris on August 15, 2017, 04:39:07 pm
Peaceful is debatable but at large, they weren't doing anything illegal until the point of conflict.
It's easy to take free speech for granted in a western nation because of strong structures. So it doesn't seem like there's anything wrong with policing a little hate speech. History has proven that when you start weakening free speech (Latin America), you most certainly inch closer to unreasonably suppressed speech.
One could call it paranoia, but protecting the rights of those you don't agree with (no matter how shitty said people may be) is protecting your own rights too. People countered the movement because they have the right to respond. The violence that happened afterwards was two energized groups butting heads.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: JustNoPoint on August 15, 2017, 04:45:17 pm
I guess it's the same as with Westboro. You go there with the intent to make them look like fools. I have no idea what the government actually expects to happen. You and Snakebyte are both right.
The point of disconnect here within the forum is when you start saying things like this
Quote
do you have no empathy for other races?
I'm not sure how my explanation gave you that impression. These are horrible people advocating horrible things. This is the part I'm against. Demonizing anyone that simply is trying to bring a different view in. Again, I agree with everything you say it's just not going to make discussing different views easier if a person is labelled without just cause.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: MAO11 on August 15, 2017, 06:38:23 pm
Why would anyone even THINK that now when minorities are taking their RIGHTFUL place in society (something they should've done long ago or not have needed to do it AT ALL) "white supremacists" get all bitten because of that thinking anyone is going to "replace" them?
I'm not sure how my explanation gave you that impression.
"It's still a peaceful protest until someone uses [a weapon]" im tired of repeating myself so here is an equation: peaceful people+peaceful goal = peaceful march hateful people+hateful goal = violent march it's still a violent march even if no one got hurt, the very intent of it is built on hate and violence. why is that so hard to understand?
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Byakko on August 15, 2017, 06:58:10 pm
It's easy to take free speech for granted in a western nation because of strong structures. So it doesn't seem like there's anything wrong with policing a little hate speech. History has proven that when you start weakening free speech (Latin America), you most certainly inch closer to unreasonably suppressed speech.
Right, except for all the other Western countries where hate speech isn't protected by free speech and is considered a crime. It's called Europe. You might also have heard of Germany that straight up bans most depictions of Nazi symbols, which gives a hard time whenever someone wants to make a documentary or a WWII video games, they have to jump through a few hoops to be greenlit. Policing hate speech should be obvious even in any democracy. I mean, lolwtf come on.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: JustNoPoint on August 15, 2017, 07:30:46 pm
I agree. I think the worry is that it'll become too much. New things will fall under "hate speech". I mean it's kind of the same reason ppl hate gun control. You start off at nukes and they fear you're going to take away their slingshot over time.
I'd like to risk it for these extreme cases though =p
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Byakko on August 15, 2017, 07:42:29 pm
Yeah, hate speech has been a crime for like half a century in half of Europe with no problem. We're not all that dumb. It's been 130 years in France and 100 years in Canada ! This fear that it'll devolve and break down is nonsense. Well, unless you begin electing people like Trump, but that's not happening in normal countries. And if it does, it ends in a revolution.
In other news, Lee's statue has been torn down by protesters, it seems.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Niitris on August 15, 2017, 08:45:44 pm
Back in the civil rights era, groups like the KKK were far bigger in number, piggybacking off what Fubini said. They've ultimately withered to the point where numerous protesters were from out of state (car attacker was from Ohio, two others arrested were from Florida and Tennessee). Yes, people really drove from different states to protest a statue's removal. Their total number was around 500 iirc.
The free market of ideas already won out on neo-nazi groups. There's no need to add additional legislation to make their speech illegal. Can't speak for Europe in that regard, sensitivities may be different enough to warrant such laws.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Prime SC on August 15, 2017, 08:53:37 pm
there is a need for it, because their protests lead to violence and peoples deaths.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Byakko on August 15, 2017, 09:13:15 pm
Hi, hello, Trump and Bannon are in the White House.
edit at Snakebyte http://mugenguild.com/forum/topics/all-that-s-left-re-white-supremacists-protest-virginia-180957.msg2369438.html;topicseen#msg2369438 Where is that post calling you a racist
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Niitris on August 15, 2017, 09:30:52 pm
They were voted in because states that voted Obama in 2012 flipped for economic concerns.
White supremacist movements are fringe, this one incident horrible as it is, doesn't change that.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Snakebyte on August 15, 2017, 09:34:12 pm
Im glad Snakebyte took the time off from from considering the EU a facist state to remind us all that the rampant racists and neo nazis have all the right in the world to organize and speak out about how they think minorities don't deserve to live and should all be murdered en mass. Glad you got our back there buddy.
No, buddy, you don't get to slander me and call me a racist because I'm accurately telling you how the first amendment works. The constitution isn't racism.
When seeing that Trump wouldn't condemn the far right, a few republican senators have asked for the car killing to be named for what it was : a domestic terror attack. If you think the protest was peaceful, you're delusional, it always leads to violence. You only need to look at the people who came to the protest in full army gear (weapons included) and full body armor and whatnot. And the next picture is those same guys in body armor with riot shields surrounding one Black guy on the ground beating his head in with sticks. Calling it peaceful is just fucking nuts.
Trump DID condemn the far right, both implicitly in his first statement and explicitly in his second. Condemning everyone involved includes condemning the far right. This is people trying to spin a tragedy into political point-scoring and it's fucking disgusting, this isn't about fucking Trump, can none of you stop your foaming-at-the-mouth Trump hate for one second? Even when there's actual blood on the ground?
The white supremacists, like it or not, had the right to protest peacefully
lol
Naw that wasn't a slip-up. They were protesting peacefully and then the VA police tried to make them disperse. The non-peaceful actions--including the, y'know, car murder--came hours after that. I know most sane people probably don't give a shit, but their rights were violated by the state before any of the carnage went down. They're suing and they'll win, even if public opinion will be as against them as it is possible to be.
This is... one of the most monumentally ridiculous cases of being 'technically correct' I've ever seen, but it's the way it went.
(https://www.thewrap.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/charlottesville-1.jpg) your nazi friends. they don't deserve freedom when they proudly motion a sign that signifies race superiority. they don't deserve freedom when they scream "blood and soil" and "you will not replace us". they don't deserve freedom when they fucking demand ethnic cleansing and beat up black bypassers. fuck their freedom.
Everyone deserves freedom. If you take freedom away from anyone, you take it away from everyone. They are not 'my Nazi friends' and absolutely fuck you for saying that I support murderers and racists when I didn't do that in any way. If a mob gets to decide who has and doesn't have freedom, one day there will be a mob trying to take away yours. It's wrong.
You all should know better than to try and engage Snakebyte in a political discussion by now. History shows he only ever shows up in threads like these when he thinks he can score an easy "ha ha take that liberals" moment and then skitters off before he's forced to actually say anything substantive
I am a liberal so have no interest in saying 'ha ha take that liberals'. If you read my original post it pretty much denounced everyone. Fuck off with this ad hominem bullshit, I've done nothing to justify character assassination from you. Jesus fucking christ.
General comments:
I'm a pedantic asshole. I delve into the details of things out of habit, and this means people miss what I'm saying when I get too specific, so I want to make one thing really clear. I am not calling a protest where people died by having someone drive a car into them intentionally was peaceful. I am saying another layer to this whole event is going to be the legal conflict between the alt-right and the state of Virginia, and I'm pretty sure the law is on their side, even if common sense is not. It's just an academic side point. Another layer to the shit sundae that was the entire event. It's important to mention because it means that, legally, there will be more rallies like this, and the world will probably keep going to shit. This is not support. This is me doing my best to try to figure out where the world is going and let other people know.
I don't like it. I don't want it. I'm just trying to understand it so it doesn't catch me by surprise.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Mechy on August 15, 2017, 09:38:06 pm
Well you should try to understand a bit harder then, since nowhere in that post did I slander you or or call you racist.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Snakebyte on August 15, 2017, 09:39:25 pm
Quote
Im glad Snakebyte took the time off from from considering the EU a facist state
What is this then? I've never made any comments about the EU or fascism on this forum. Is that not what racists believe? Is that not exactly what you're trying to do?
You're accusing me of believing horrible shit that I don't even remotely believe.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Niitris on August 15, 2017, 09:44:26 pm
Quote
Trump DID condemn the far right, both implicitly in his first statement and explicitly in his second. Condemning everyone involved includes condemning the far right.
About that, he should've called them out by name. You can't preach about "radical Islamic terrorism" and then say nothing when a far-rightest does the same heinous act. It just looks like a limp-dicked effort to passify his small support base. And it didn't work, David Duke ripped him anyway, we're not talking about reasonable people.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Mechy on August 15, 2017, 09:47:15 pm
What is this then? I've never made any comments about the EU or fascism on this forum. Is that not what racists believe? Is that not exactly what you're trying to do?
You're accusing me of believing horrible shit that I don't even remotely believe.
That was alluding to some stuff you said back in another thread. Which I think was originally about Trump but got derailed to be about more stuff. I'l try to dig it up to check.
That doesn't still have anything do with racism though. I think you should check what that word means.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Byakko on August 15, 2017, 09:48:14 pm
??? That makes no sense, saying the EU may be slightly fascist has fuck all to do with racism (or whatever he was referring to, I don't remember what it was, and whether you said it or not, I don't care). Do you not even know the fucking definition of racism or what
Quote
Trump DID condemn the far right, both implicitly in his first statement and explicitly in his second. Condemning everyone involved includes condemning the far right.
lol no, that argument is complete bullshit. Even the white supremacists themselves get that, as they were going on about Trump silently supporting them. He avoided outright saying it, he tried to equate the counter protest to the supremacist protest when the counter protest did nothing like what the supremacists did, and he only went with the second statement (2 days later) because of the fire he was under. And you very clearly see the difference between when he goes off script to say both sides are equally wrong and when he is forced to stick to the script word for word the second time.
Quote
Everyone deserves freedom. If you take freedom away from anyone, you take it away from everyone. They are not 'my Nazi friends' and absolutely fuck you for saying that I support murderers and racists when I didn't do that in any way. If a mob gets to decide who has and doesn't have freedom, one day there will be a mob trying to take away yours. It's wrong.
Yeah, criminals and rapists and murderers also deserve freedom ! Because if some mob gets mad at a random mass murderer and take away his freedom, someday someone else will be mad at that mob and take away your freedom ! And if you don't like the comparison with murderers, also remember that stuff like defamation is subject to a lawsuit, even though it should fall under free speech by your standards. Hate speech doesn't even get that. Hate speech should be a crime, as it is in most civilized countries. This shouldn't be fucking rocket science. It's batshit bonkers that anyone is still defending hate speech as free speech in a first world country. Yes, the US is batshit bonkers.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Snakebyte on August 15, 2017, 09:51:25 pm
@Niitris: He did call them out by name the second time he spoke about it. As far as the first time, aside from the guy who drove the car into the crowd, the violence was on both sides so I thought it was right to denounce both sides. No one should get a free pass for attacking protestors with weapons, regardless of what they're protesting for. More pragmatically too, if he only calls one side out when two sides are at fault, this just lets the Nazis tell their followers about how the media singles them out. It fuels their fire.
This is a complex event that's getting boiled down to 'Nazis are bad and also fuck Trump because he didn't say exactly what I want him to say'. Really what's wrong is people attacking eachother with weapons in the streets. Everyone who does that is bad! Everyone who does it should be denounced.
@Mechy: If I actually said anything like that ever I owe you a complete apology and I'll delete the report if reports work like that, but it doesn't sound like anything I'd say and it's not a belief I hold.
@Byakko: I'm not gonna engage with you, it's not productive, you just froth about the things you hate. No point attempting to reason.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Byakko on August 15, 2017, 09:53:06 pm
Says the guy defending racists and neo nazis. You would reach a Godwin point if this wasn't already about actual neo nazis waving the Nazi flag.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Snakebyte on August 15, 2017, 09:53:59 pm
Thanks for proving my point, Byakko. I am in no way defending racists or neo nazis.
Have your insane fact-twisting tantrum if you want, as you've proven over and over again facts don't matter to you. You'll just lie and say whatever you want.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Byakko on August 15, 2017, 09:56:51 pm
You keep deflecting by claiming you're not defending neo nazis and only defending free speech (that happens to be about neo nazis) and playing devil's advocate by nitpicking on the law and saying "technically, it's legal". Everybody fully understands that. But we also all fully know that that defense is bullshit. We're telling you it should be illegal and everyone else outside of the US (and you) understands that. Fuck off with your nitpicks about what the law officially says and how everyone has rights. This isn't just me, this is the rest of the fucking world.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Thedge on August 15, 2017, 09:58:43 pm
Some tweet said:
TRUMP: Mexicans are bad TRUMP: Muslims are bad TRUMP: Media are bad EVERYONE: what about Nazis? TRUMP: let's not single anyone out
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Snakebyte on August 15, 2017, 10:01:13 pm
You keep deflecting by claiming you're not defending neo nazis and only defending free speech (that happens to be about neo nazis) and playing devil's advocate by nitpicking on the law and saying "technically, it's legal". Everybody fully understands that. But we also all fully know that that defense is bullshit. We're telling you it should be illegal and everyone else outside of the US (and you) understands that. Fuck off with your nitpicks about what the law officially says and how everyone has rights. This isn't just me, this is the rest of the fucking world.
ITT: Byakko thinks he speaks for billions of people.
'Fuck off with how everyone has rights'.
ITT: Byakko, on the side against equal rights.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Byakko on August 15, 2017, 10:07:31 pm
ITT: Byakko thinks he speaks for billions of people.
Did you already forget the part where a whole bunch of countries have a law against hate speech ? Or is that some more fact that you're just disregarding because it doesn't fit your point ? Yes, the rest of the world does, in fact, think hate speech should be illegal, and they've made it so. Go defend the freedom of mass murderers and terrorists and rapists or whatever, it'll be less obnoxious than defending neo nazis the free speech of neo nazis. Also, I said fuck off with your nitpicks about how everyone has rights, not fuck off about everyone having rights. Learn to read and don't twist the things I say kthx.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Erroratu on August 15, 2017, 10:09:48 pm
Most of those countries aren't the brightest example of countries tho Considering you get arrested for having a butter knife in the UK and the general situation of germany Hatespeech is bad yea but if you make it illegal its only a matter of time before your speech gets classified by someone else as hate speech and becomes illegal
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Byakko on August 15, 2017, 10:13:06 pm
Hatespeech is bad yea but if you make it illegal its only a matter of time before your speech gets classified by someone else as hate speech and becomes illegal
Another reminder of something I said just one page ago : these laws have existed in France and Canada for over a hundred years (and probably other places but I'm not checking the laws in every single country). This argument is factually and historically wrong.
not to mention what "general situation of Germany" || V
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Mechy on August 15, 2017, 10:14:21 pm
Also, what do the laws regarding the possession of weapons have to do with free speech? They didn't make a law telling people to not say racist shit and just sneak in a few lines about arresting people with butter knives.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Gennos on August 15, 2017, 10:18:27 pm
you are tho. you're rationalizing their protest as peaceful when it clearly wasn't, you're not condemning them directly and you're shifting the blame on everyone when it's clearly the neo-nazi who instigated this entire thing. unsurprisingly, you're doing exactly like your hero trump did.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Erroratu on August 15, 2017, 10:19:49 pm
Was meant as a reference as to how low a country thats just pandering to the fears of certain people can fall instead of just reassuring their people and dealing with those fears properly Ban mean words,then raid houses because of mean words and classify car radios as potential weapons,then ban people from holding a knife in open etc. Its honestly silly Edit:Was answering Mechy ,sorry for any confusion
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Snakebyte on August 15, 2017, 10:22:15 pm
Also, what do the laws regarding the possession of weapons have to do with free speech? They didn't make a law telling people to not say racist shit and just sneak in a few lines about arresting people with butter knives.
I strongly agree. The protestors should have had their weapons confiscated.
you are tho. you're rationalizing their protest as peaceful when it clearly wasn't, you're not condemning them directly and you're shifting the blame on everyone when it's clearly the neo-nazi who instigated this entire thing. unsurprisingly, you're doing exactly like your hero trump did.
I literally said 'The white supremacists were terrible'. Stop lying about me.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Mechy on August 15, 2017, 10:26:39 pm
Was meant as a reference as to how low a country thats just pandering to the fears of certain people can fall instead of just reassuring their people and dealing with those fears properly Ban mean words,then raid houses because of mean words and classify car radios as potential weapons,then ban people from holding a knife in open etc. Its honestly silly Edit:Was answering Mechy ,sorry for any confusion
I couldn't find anything of the first three things in the UK so I really don't know what you are trying to get at here.
And the last one I think is pretty smart. A guy walking around the street amongst crowds with a fucking unseathed knife blade waving about is something that should be discouraged with law.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Erroratu on August 15, 2017, 10:32:43 pm
I couldn't find anything of the first three things in the UK so I really don't know what you are trying to get at here.
It's a bit old but it was a series of tweets from an official UK cop station in which they raided a girl who spoke against muslims and took away some of her kitchen ware and radio as it classified as dangerous weapons apparently.
A guy walking around the street amongst crowds with a fucking unseathed knife blade waving about is something that should be discouraged with law.
Yea if someone is obviously dangerous then his behavior should most definetly be discouraged by law,but this goes as little as just carrying a knife you bought home thats in a bag. Plus the campaign the cops had about it was nuts. Carry a Knife Lose your Life or somecrap ,and you can get up to 4 years for it
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Byakko on August 15, 2017, 10:38:17 pm
but this goes as little as just carrying a knife you bought home thats in a bag.
No. Looking up that campaign, it was specifically about knife crimes, "knife-related violence", not just buying a knife from the market and carrying it home wrapped in a bag. Because people are reasonable enough to interpret a law properly. There are insane laws in random parts of the US (and other countries) that are still legally active but completely ignored because everyone knows they're not applicable word for word (or just straight up crazy). Law enforcement that's not insane knows the difference between a guy waving a big unsheathed knife in a crowd and a guy who needs a potato peeler at the market.
Those fears you're talking about are all theoretical, like a thought experiment in a novel such as 1984. There are also people today who fear that AIs might take over the human world or believe that Asimov's laws make sense today. But that's just not how AIs work, and that's not how laws and democracy work either.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Snakebyte on August 15, 2017, 10:41:28 pm
ITT: Byakko knows better than Elon Musk
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Thedge on August 15, 2017, 10:44:08 pm
What Elon Musk thinks about those nazis this thread is about?
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Erroratu on August 15, 2017, 10:46:22 pm
Thank you for the compliment Snake but I am not Elon Musk We all sometimes disagree with people but god dammit Snake this is like the 3rd time you did that "ITT BYAKO" stuff and its getting a bit obnoxious
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Snakebyte on August 15, 2017, 10:47:12 pm
Yeah that's fair I'll stop derailing.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Byakko on August 15, 2017, 10:48:44 pm
The Facebook guy also openly disagrees with Elon Musk, would you accuse me of knowing better than him if I said the opposite ? Also ITT you disagree with half of the world saying hate speech should still be free speech because if it's not then soon your freedom will be taken away too.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Snakebyte on August 15, 2017, 10:51:42 pm
Last post for a while because I genuinely want to stop derailing, but he asked me a specific question:
Yeah, I would, because it's very silly to make a concrete, definitive statement about something where some of the brightest people in the world who work in that field or related fields disagree. You don't know 'how AIs work' and it's very silly to say that you do, because nobody does for sure. Even the people qualified to have an opinion have different ones and openly argue with eachother.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Seadragon77 on August 15, 2017, 10:53:53 pm
If I remember correctly, the protesters on the right were supposed to have their rally at a separate park, but left for a different park, which lead into what you saw over the weekend. In a way, Snakebyte is right on that point.
I understand completely that hate speech is evil and all, but they do have a right to protest under the 1st Amendment... if you don't like it, you can choose to ignore them or fight back. Be careful, because fighting back always ends up with no winners.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Byakko on August 15, 2017, 10:56:29 pm
You don't know 'how AIs work' and it's very silly to say that you do, because nobody does for sure.
Not even the people who create them ?? (spoiler : of course they do, they make it)
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Snakebyte on August 15, 2017, 10:57:27 pm
Dumb simplification on my part, what I meant was the impact true AI will have on the future, not the inner workings of what limited AI exists right now.
edit: Srsly tho, this tangent is dumb and I'm sorry for starting it, let's let people get back to discussing politics.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Jmorphman on August 15, 2017, 11:26:57 pm
You dummies, Trump TOTALLY condemned the Nazis's in his Saturday statement! And he just did a press conference where he affirmed how good and smart and nice his Saturday statements were! (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/15/us/politics/trump-press-conference-charlottesville.html)
Quote
President Trump angrily defended himself on Tuesday against criticism that he did not specifically condemn Nazi and white supremacist groups following the weekend’s deadly racial unrest in Virginia, and at one point questioned whether the movement to pull down statues of Confederate leaders would escalate to the desecration of George Washington.
In a long, combative exchange with reporters at Trump Tower in Manhattan, the president repeatedly rejected a torrent of bipartisan criticism for waiting several days before naming the right-wing groups and placing blame on “many sides” for the violence on Saturday that ended with the death of a young woman after a car crashed into a crowd.
He said that “before I make a statement, I like to know the facts.”
And he criticized “alt-left” groups that he claimed were “very, very violent” when they sought to confront the nationalist and Nazi groups that had gathered in Charlottesville, Va., to protest the removal of a statue of Robert E. Lee from a park. He said there is “blame on both sides.”
[...]
The president’s breathtaking statements inflamed and stunned people across Twitter.
“Blaming ‘both sides’ for #Charlottesville?! No,” wrote Representative Ileana Ros-Lehtinen, Republican of Florida. “Back to relativism when dealing with KKK, Nazi sympathizers, white supremacists? Just no.”
[...] David Duke, a former Ku Klux Klan leader, praised Mr. Trump’s comments as a condemnation of “leftist terrorists.”
“Thank you President Trump for your honesty & courage to tell the truth about #Charlottesville,” Mr. Duke said in a Twitter post.
[...]
Mr. Trump defended those gathered in the Charlottesville park to protest the statue’s removal, saying, “I’ve condemned neo-Nazis. I’ve condemned many different groups. Not all of those people were neo-Nazis, believe me. Not all of those people were white supremacists by any stretch.”
This is the real Trump. Not that statement he made on Monday, the one his aides and allies desperately appealed on him to make. These are his true, unfiltered thoughts. This is him lashing out because he was forced to make a statement on Monday that he truly didn't believe.
It's the same thing that's happened time and time again, ever since he stepped off that escalator and announced his candidacy. Surely two years is long enough that he's exhausted even the most reasonable period of giving him the benefit of the doubt. Because he's not going to change. He's not going to turn over a new leaf. He's not going to condemn violent hate groups and extremists if they flatter him or support him.
It's time to stop pretending that he's saying stuff that he isn't.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Iced on August 15, 2017, 11:29:48 pm
ahah he's so very obviously trying to imply there might be valid reasons to support nazism, we just might not know the reasons behind the nazis and they might be VERY valid, very valid indeed.
No wonder the extremists like him, he will fight to the death to not have to speak against them.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Snakebyte on August 15, 2017, 11:55:17 pm
He's not going to condemn violent hate groups and extremists if they flatter him or support him.
He literally did, and you admitted he literally did earlier in the post. You don't get to ignore facts you don't like. Stop using a tragedy to score political points. Stop saying things that literally happened didn't happen.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Prime SC on August 16, 2017, 12:05:31 am
Man get yo ass own, did u read what jmorph just posted? In there he basically took his words back and has kkk members applauding him for it.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Jmorphman on August 16, 2017, 12:08:03 am
He literally did, and you admitted he literally did earlier in the post. You don't get to ignore facts you don't like. Stop using a tragedy to score political points. Stop saying things that literally happened didn't happen.
This is the real Trump. Not that statement he made on Monday, the one his aides and allies desperately appealed on him to make. These are his true, unfiltered thoughts. This is him lashing out because he was forced to make a statement on Monday that he truly didn't believe.
As evidenced by the rest of this thread, it's pretty clear you aren't even the slightest bit interested in having a substantive debate, but instead prefer dredge through the mud, picking and poking at semantics, trying to find even the most minor of things to use as an "ah-hah, gotcha" moment. That's a child's game, and I'm not interested in playing it. So I'm gonna bow out here. :hyo:
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Iced on August 16, 2017, 12:09:17 am
can't believe how this scumbag finds new lows every fucking day. He wont speak out against the nazi fucks because he needs their votes but he'll speak about how the mother of their victim really likes him you guys.
What a shitheel.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Snakebyte on August 16, 2017, 12:11:42 am
As evidenced by the rest of this thread, it's pretty clear you aren't even the slightest bit interested in having a substantive debate, but instead prefer dredge through the mud, picking and poking at semantics, trying to find even the most minor of things to use as an "ah-hah, gotcha" moment. That's a child's game, and I'm not interested in playing it. So I'm gonna bow out here. :hyo:
All I'm doing in this thread is having substantive debate. All you're doing is lying about people and demeaning people who call you on it.
Don't be a child.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Prime SC on August 16, 2017, 12:14:59 am
Your completely ignorant and it's irritating, I'm out to.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Byakko on August 16, 2017, 12:16:50 am
All you're doing is lying about people and demeaning people who call you on it.
Nothing of what he said was a lie. Trump said one thing on Saturday, got flamed for it, was forced to say more on Monday, and the next Tuesday he came back on what he said on Monday and repeated that what he said Saturday was better. You've done nothing but nitpick about things that are "technically correct" and "technically legal" even though the rest of the world can easily see through these people and their supporters. Nothing of what you say has any actual meaning, you're just spinning facts and picking what you present when it suits you. You just read text while ignoring the meaning behind the words.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: JustNoPoint on August 16, 2017, 12:17:52 am
Yeah I was trying to defend but now it's hard. JMM's statement was clear. Trump took his obviously fake apology back. I don't know why you're calling JMM a liar for reporting the thing that happened.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Person Man on August 16, 2017, 12:21:47 am
I warned y'all this was going to happen if you kept humoring him.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Snakebyte on August 16, 2017, 12:22:32 am
I'm going to keep standing up for equality, bud. I don't really care if Mr. 'fuck off with your nitpicks about how everyone has rights' has a problem with it.
Everyone has rights. Taking rights away from people is wrong. Doesn't matter who it is. Doesn't matter if they're real mean. No matter how many times you try to lie about my intentions, your lies aren't going to serve the purpose you want. My original post was commentary about the entire situation. Which I framed negatively. All of it. Not 'spinning facts'. The only agenda I am pushing is that: The world is fucked. Lying is bad. Violating people's rights is wrong.
Jesus fucking christ, you depress me.
@Just No Point: Did you actually read what he posted? None of that is 'taking a statement back'. It, in fact, contains MORE CONDEMNATIONS. Are you blind? I don't understand. Obvious lies are obvious.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Byakko on August 16, 2017, 12:28:17 am
Everyone has rights. Taking rights away from people is wrong. Doesn't matter who it is. Doesn't matter if they're real mean.
For the third time, go defend the rights to freedom of some mass murderers, terrorists and rapists instead of sticking up for the rights of neo nazis. You'll be more successful. Neo nazi rights are literally the worst thing in the world you can stand up for. It's called passing Godwin's point because it's the worst thing that can come to the mind of anyone on Earth on the scale of comparison to bad stuff. It's the one thing everyone in the world knows not to defend. (except Trump) Don't fucking defend neo nazi rights. What the fuck is wrong with you.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Endorfan on August 16, 2017, 12:45:26 am
go defend the rights to freedom of some mass murderers, terrorists and rapists instead of sticking up for the rights of neo nazis. You'll be more successful.
Everybody know you people are successful doing it, doesn't mean it is the right thing to do so.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Snakebyte on August 16, 2017, 01:53:39 am
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_...
When you support violating the rights of any group, you support violating the rights of all groups.
edit: I'm not going to respond anymore. I don't need to feel this shitty today.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Person Man on August 16, 2017, 02:02:09 am
Hahahahaha he actually cited a poem that is literally about the the complacency that let Nazis rise to power in Germany as his defense of Nazi rights.
Holy fucking shit I'm dying.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Iced on August 16, 2017, 02:05:18 am
talk about shooting his own foot repeatedly
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: R565 on August 16, 2017, 02:16:38 am
Oh lord, this is just delicious. The foot is just gone now.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Byakko on August 16, 2017, 02:35:16 am
And for the 50th time, banning hate speech does not lead to taking away free speech and other forms of freedom in a civilized country. Keep evading that objective fact all you want, it doesn't make your claims and fears any less historically wrong.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Bastard Mami on August 16, 2017, 03:21:34 am
And for the 50th time, banning hate speech does not lead to taking away free speech and other forms of freedom in a civilized country.
we are talking about the usa here dood.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Snakebyte on August 16, 2017, 03:56:48 am
And everyone's too busy assuming I didn't know what the poem was about to get my point in posting it.
Classic.
Argue against the people in front of you, not the imaginary retarded versions of them in your head.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Orochi Gill on August 16, 2017, 06:10:06 am
"Not gonna respond anymore" "Continuing to respond
Boy, pick one
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Do not even ask on August 16, 2017, 06:35:40 am
i love the centrist hot takes about the rally, about how calling the white nationalists "nazis" turned them into nazis. hopefully no one calls them pedos or else they'll all be going around diddling kids
also snakebyte is the fucking best. he's like the ian miles cheong of this forum, just a fount of endless entertainment
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Gennos on August 16, 2017, 06:45:47 am
Everyone has rights. Taking rights away from people is wrong. Doesn't matter who it is. Doesn't matter if they're real mean. No matter how many times you try to lie about my intentions, your lies aren't going to serve the purpose you want. My original post was commentary about the entire situation. Which I framed negatively. All of it. Not 'spinning facts'. The only agenda I am pushing is that: The world is fucked. Lying is bad. Violating people's rights is wrong.
the freedom of the white supremacists caused violence to erupt in the streets, and caused the death of an innocent woman. their freedom literately means rioting and violence, they were never peaceful in the first place.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Endorfan on August 16, 2017, 06:59:34 am
the freedom of the white supremacists caused violence to erupt in the streets, and caused the death of an innocent woman. their freedom literately means rioting and violence, they were never peaceful in the first place.
Someone who they don't agree is not to blame for antifa maiming people and destroying property in the streets since years ago, let alone getting hit by a car they started to attack while trying to shut down free speech once again.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Snakebyte on August 16, 2017, 07:33:07 am
Careful with that. I don't believe that's accurate.
Here you can see them hitting the car.
(http://www.motherjones.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/08142017-weaponizedcars.jpg?w=990) Brake lights on.
(http://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/news/2017/08/13/TELEMMGLPICT000137329448_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqpVlberWd9EgFPZtcLiMQfyf2A9a6I9YchsjMeADBa08.jpeg) Then the first hit that you can see in the video.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Byakko on August 16, 2017, 09:14:04 am
i love the centrist hot takes about the rally, about how calling the white nationalists "nazis" turned them into nazis. hopefully no one calls them pedos or else they'll all be going around diddling kids
Are you just disregarding the tons of pictures of them doing Nazi salutes, wearing KKK hoods, waving Nazi flags and everything ?
And Endorfan, look at the video. See the speed at which the car is going forward (before that first hit you see), then notice how the front bumper is ruined when it backs away. He came into the crowd at full speed, smashed into the car that was in front of him in the middle of the protesters, and then he went back full speed. When he hit the car in front, it smashed the car in front and a second car in front of that (a big one). Whether he hit the brake shortly at some point or not, if you want to argue that he did that only because someone hit his car, be ready to hear that someone hit his car because he was speeding right at the crowd. Don't cherry pick the single images that fit your version.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: DJ_HANNIBALROYCE on August 16, 2017, 09:34:03 am
cmon snake, u know u wrong bruh.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Gennos on August 16, 2017, 01:20:47 pm
the freedom of the white supremacists caused violence to erupt in the streets, and caused the death of an innocent woman. their freedom literately means rioting and violence, they were never peaceful in the first place.
Someone who they don't agree is not to blame for antifa maiming people and destroying property in the streets since years ago, let alone getting hit by a car they started to attack while trying to shut down free speech once again.
Are you dumb? That is the shittiest exuce for murder that I've ever seen. Even if what you say is true it is still the shittiest. You don't run over people with your car no matter how much they damage it.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Snakebyte on August 16, 2017, 01:34:05 pm
theres no need for an argument. what i get from ur post is that everyone should have rights...even white supremacist. As a black man i say. fuck that. We are all equal and promoting hate is evil af...and anyone that disagrees can eat a dick. :)
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Erroratu on August 16, 2017, 02:40:36 pm
Its general knowledge that a human being,regardless of their political views,should still,in full,have all human rights. Not liking someone elses political views is fair ground for shitposting,debate and insult throwing and the like,but saying they don't deserve human rights because of it is silly
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: DJ_HANNIBALROYCE on August 16, 2017, 02:53:09 pm
Its general knowledge that a human being,regardless of their political views,should still,in full,have all human rights. Not liking someone elses political views is fair ground for shitposting,debate and insult throwing and the like,but saying they don't deserve human rights because of it is silly
so the kkk that wants to kill all black people should have human rights....hmmmm. maybe the jails should free all murderers then. smh. i dont think kkk is seen as a political view.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Byakko on August 16, 2017, 03:21:41 pm
Yeah, saying everyone should have human rights shouldn't stop them from facing justice when they commit crimes. And again, hate speech should be considered a crime everywhere. Hate speech and white supremacy aren't just "political views". It's up there not far from crimes against humanity, as in crime against other people's human rights. IDGAF if you don't like it because free speech.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Snakebyte on August 16, 2017, 03:36:19 pm
Everyone should have rights until they commit a crime. Thoughts are not a crime. 'Hate speech' isn't a term with a firm definition, and is a slippery slope to censoring a lot of speech that shouldn't be censored (see the guy in the UK about to go to prison because he taught his pug a Nazi salute to piss off his girlfriend). I'm not opposed to really, really rigidly defined hate speech laws, but they'd have to be really, really rigidly defined, to prevent the kind of slippery-slope horseshit we're seeing all across the internet.
Byakko, I want to be clear about something here. I actually agree with you about hate speech laws. I just don't believe you can act on a law that doesn't exist. I'm for changing the laws in the US to restrict hate speech if it's done right, but you have to grant people the rights they have until that change exists. To do otherwise will lead to really bad outcomes, because it will normalize vigilante actions to take away people's rights.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Byakko on August 16, 2017, 03:54:08 pm
Laws change with each country, it doesn't mean you can't get upset with it. india's rape culture has a very hard time getting rapists prosecuted, some Middle East countries give no right to specific kinds of people (such as women), there are countries that don't recognize human rights period, and so on. Those acts are perfectly legal in these countries (I don't remember which country allows a rapist to just marry his victim as a punishment), but it doesn't make them less wrong on the level of humanity. Saying "well it's legal in that country, whatcha gonna do" is still revolting, and the rest of the world should completely have a right to be upset against it and call for justice and human rights. Not that they should go to war of course, but they should completely pressure the country into changing its laws by various means.
When a country like the US or France or wherever determine that a specific country is violating human rights, it does become a conflict as the international community decides that human rights should absolutely trump the local laws. (This is regardless of what actually happened in countries like the Middle East and Central America because the country that acted up ended in corruption) Economic sanctions for example are the preferred method currently (it doesn't work much).
And yes, I am absoutely comparing US's laxism against hate speech to the stuff from the Middle East, Russia etc. That have led to economic sanctions.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Erroratu on August 16, 2017, 04:15:13 pm
Its general knowledge that a human being,regardless of their political views,should still,in full,have all human rights. Not liking someone elses political views is fair ground for shitposting,debate and insult throwing and the like,but saying they don't deserve human rights because of it is silly
so the kkk that wants to kill all black people should have human rights....hmmmm. maybe the jails should free all murderers then. smh.
What Do you even understand what rights are? All prisoners still have human rights you silly nilly.The murderers,thieves and even the people on the death row,still keep their rights If they didnt,the country would be allowed to use them for slavery, to torture them , to not give them a fair trial and who knows what else Prisoners themselves,for the time of being imprisoned,lose certain rights,like rights to privacy and to own property/items in your cell,but thats more than understandable , considering its done for the safety measures of the prison staff
Everyone should have rights until they commit a crime.
Again,thats not how it works Like I said,rights to privacy and such are lost cause you're in jail , but losing all rights due to imprisonment is inhumane
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Snakebyte on August 16, 2017, 04:23:38 pm
Laws change with each country, it doesn't mean you can't get upset with it. india's rape culture has a very hard time getting rapists prosecuted, some Middle East countries give no right to specific kinds of people (such as women), there are countries that don't recognize human rights period, and so on. Those acts are perfectly legal in these countries (I don't remember which country allows a rapist to just marry his victim as a punishment), but it doesn't make them less wrong on the level of humanity. Saying "well it's legal in that country, whatcha gonna do" is still revolting, and the rest of the world should completely have a right to be upset against it and call for justice and human rights. Not that they should go to war of course, but they should completely pressure the country into changing its laws by various means.
When a country like the US or France or wherever determine that a specific country is violating human rights, it does become a conflict as the international community decides that human rights should absolutely trump the local laws. (This is regardless of what actually happened in countries like the Middle East and Central America because the country that acted up ended in corruption) Economic sanctions for example are the preferred method currently (it doesn't work much).
And yes, I am absoutely comparing US's laxism against hate speech to the stuff from the Middle East, Russia etc. That have led to economic sanctions.
No, I totally agree with you. It is honestly shocking how much I agree with everything you're saying here. I'm just going to stick with my stance that being 'upset with it' should take the form of protesting against the laws and trying to rally for changing the laws, not taking the law into your own hands and trying to take away the rights of people you don't think should have them. Only the law should be able to take away rights. When you do it on your own, you open the door to anyone doing it on their own, to anyone.
We want the same end goal. I think we just disagree on methods. And I want to stress that my concern here isn't for Nazis, it's for other people that could have their rights get taken away if public opinion swings against them. Public opinion is right on Nazis but I don't trust it. I've experienced mob 'justice' personally. I've personally witnessed religiously-motivated hate crimes when I lived in a small town. This is the sort of thing you enable if you start taking people's rights away on your own.
We agree that the laws are wrong. What I'm stressing is the importance of obeying the law even while it's wrong, while simultaneously trying to change the law.
@Erroratu: You're right, I oversimplified, what I meant was you shouldn't lose any rights until you commit a crime.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Byakko on August 16, 2017, 04:41:14 pm
I'm just going to stick with my stance that being 'upset with it' should take the form of protesting against the laws and trying to rally for changing the laws, not taking the law into your own hands and trying to take away the rights of people you don't think should have them.
Maybe you should give examples of where this happened here. There was a protest against the protest, few people caused some damage as always in any protest, and someone on the Internet is associating pictures of people walking in the open in a protest with their names which isn't taking away any right, just letting the employers decide if that employee is way too toxic and don't want to associate themselves with them. What rights have been taken away exactly ? Have protesters been arrested ? Has anyone in this thread actually seriously called for these people to be thrown in jail ? If you mean taking away the right to protest, if we're talking about finally making a law to stop hate speech... This is self-contradicting, do you want laws to be made against hate speech or do you say they should keep theior right to protest and give hate speech ?
I sympathize with your personal experience, but we're not talking about mob justice. We're talking about laws and how hate speech should be made illegal. And before that,this thread was talking about a protest, a counter protest, the white supremacists beating up Black people, and a car driving over the counter protesters. If anything, the mob justice came from the white supremacists too. And yes, mob justice and hate crimes should be, and ARE, punished by law.
In other news, Baltimore quietly took down 4 Confederate statues during the night.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Niitris on August 16, 2017, 04:48:13 pm
About hate speech, I really do question the necessity and effectiveness of such laws.
England has hate speech laws. That didn't stop some asshole from jumping in a car and running over innocent Muslims. Canada has hate speech laws. That didn't stop someone from running in and shooting up a mosque. Canada's response btw: more hate speech laws. Even with all the hate speech laws in the EU, it'd be silly to think that every single country in that bloc has seen a decrease in hate related crime. These are laws specifically made to combat racism and xenophobia, I may add.
Hate speech laws sound nice, but do they really solve problems? And it only takes a few of them to then progress into Germany forcing social media to remove their subjective definition of hate speech or face 6-figure fines. Which will inevitably involve the use of "100% accurate" algorithms at some point. And people being fined or jailed for nonsensical reasons, not that's it's a daily epidemic but it happens every now and then.
Normal, reasonable people (vast majority of the population) don't engage in hate speech, and Charlottesville is far from a daily occurrence. The neo-nazis gathered from hundreds of miles away as a defensive measure; to protest the removal of a statue. It's not like they were some 50's Klan group who got together to go hunting.
Healthy skepticism of someone from barbarian England, in the very state it happened too.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Snakebyte on August 16, 2017, 04:51:38 pm
The police tried to disperse the event, taking away their right to protest. Many private internet companies have taken action censoring alt right websites, some of which were justified and some weren't. What I originally posted here about and what got you coming at me was commenting that they're going to sue the state of Virginia for taking away their right to protest which was upheld on appeal in the federal courts. That was mob justice on the state's part, the police acting outside the law.
I also believe that the counter-protestors were there with the intention of causing violence and shutting down the event by force, not just counter-chanting and making their own different opinions heard.
I'm taking a less charitable interpretation of some of these things and you probably won't agree, but hopefully you can understand where I'm coming from at least. In this and a lot of other protests, the Berkeley ones against Milo for example, there are stories and stories of the police standing by, only taking action against one side, letting the side perceived as hateful (not saying Nazis aren't hateful, perception can be right and was right this time) get attacked without intervening, and generally failing to uphold the law. That's a huge issue. They have rights until we decide, through the process of enacting new laws and criminalizing new behaviour, to take those rights away.
@Niitris: I'm Canadian. We don't have these kinds of protests up here. We don't have the Westboro Baptist Church being assholes up here. I'm not comfortable with the idea of people shouting hostile shit against other races on the street. I've also seen lots and lots and lots of unjust censorship under hate speech laws that overreach. So I'm for them, but they have to be constructed really carefully so they don't get abused. I think that's possible. Unlikely, maybe. Maybe so unlikely that the risk of implementing them isn't worth it. But possible.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Byakko on August 16, 2017, 04:53:30 pm
Even with all the hate speech laws in the EU, it'd be silly to think that every single country in that bloc has seen a decrease in hate related crime.
You don't seem to realize that these laws are a century hold. Are you asking if hate speech and hate crimes have decreased since the time of slavery and segregation... ? Because the answer is of fucking course they have. Meanwhile the US still sees these protests over a century after the civil war.
Snakebyte
Quote
The police tried to disperse the event, taking away their right to protest. Many private internet companies have taken action censoring alt right websites, some of which were justified and some weren't. What I originally posted here about and what got you coming at me was commenting that they're going to sue the state of Virginia for taking away their right to protest which was upheld on appeal in the federal courts. That was mob justice on the state's part, the police acting outside the law.
he police dispersed a bunch of people that were beating up Black people, and Internet space providers are canceling private contracts which they absolutely can.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: DJ_HANNIBALROYCE on August 16, 2017, 04:56:04 pm
Its general knowledge that a human being,regardless of their political views,should still,in full,have all human rights. Not liking someone elses political views is fair ground for shitposting,debate and insult throwing and the like,but saying they don't deserve human rights because of it is silly
so the kkk that wants to kill all black people should have human rights....hmmmm. maybe the jails should free all murderers then. smh.
What Do you even understand what rights are? All prisoners still have human rights you silly nilly.The murderers,thieves and even the people on the death row,still keep their rights
i know what rights are. and again IDGAF. im mad. fuck hate.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Snakebyte on August 16, 2017, 05:02:56 pm
The police tried to disperse the event, taking away their right to protest. Many private internet companies have taken action censoring alt right websites, some of which were justified and some weren't. What I originally posted here about and what got you coming at me was commenting that they're going to sue the state of Virginia for taking away their right to protest which was upheld on appeal in the federal courts. That was mob justice on the state's part, the police acting outside the law.
he police dispersed a bunch of people that were beating up Black people, and Internet space providers are canceling private contracts which they absolutely can.
From everything I've been able to see, that wasn't the order of events. The police tried to disrupt people that were walking about and chanting and holding torches. The violence happened after that.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Niitris on August 16, 2017, 05:10:00 pm
Meanwhile the US still sees these protests over a century after the civil war.
They would've protested regardless. There may have been less Confederate imagery if such laws existed, but they went there because a monument was being removed.
I'm sure the laws assisted as a deterrent, but hate incidents decreased because people don't acknowledge it as a good way to live anymore. Damn near nobody wants the public lashing of being associated with that.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Byakko on August 16, 2017, 05:31:09 pm
On the other hand this statue would have been gone in a blink a century ago because the Confederates are as close to hate speech as anyone in the Third Reich (you don't see statues of Himmler and Goebbels anywhere in Europe, you read about them in History books), and people in those areas wouldn't have had one more reason to idolize those people and the alleged good they did while minimizing their role in slavery. How exactly do you think you can change a nation from totalitarian inhuman monsters bent on large scale domination and racial extermination ? Remember the "first they came" poem mentioned last page ? Germany hunted down and prosecuted their Nazis, the US didn't and even let them be glorified. You could even look at the Japanese concentration camps in the US during WWII but that's an even worse can of worms that nobody wants to recognize.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Snakebyte on August 16, 2017, 05:37:18 pm
...Was anyone here opposing the removal of the statue?
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Niitris on August 16, 2017, 05:53:06 pm
The far-rightists would probably find something else to complain about at some point, probably some police brutality related matter. Confederate denouncement is only part of the entire spectrum.
I'm Canadian. We don't have these kinds of protests up here. We don't have the Westboro Baptist Church being assholes up here. I'm not comfortable with the idea of people shouting hostile shit against other races on the street. I've also seen lots and lots and lots of unjust censorship under hate speech laws that overreach. So I'm for them, but they have to be constructed really carefully so they don't get abused. I think that's possible. Unlikely, maybe. Maybe so unlikely that the risk of implementing them isn't worth it. But possible.
I don't like it either, but I guess it just acceptance that there's always gonna be jerks who hate people for being different. It doesn't help that the US is a huge country where racial clash dates back as far as it does.
I'd have absolutely no problem with hate speech laws if there weren't a potential trickle down effect. Thankfully Western nations have strong structures, and they certainly won't collapse at the smallest hate speech legislation. Anyone using Orwell speak to describe such laws is obvious fear-mongering. But I get their hyperbolic perspective because, all it takes is a few of them to believe that it's the way to go about things. And if it's deemed to be not enough, people will naturally ask for more. Which can get to the point of overreach.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Snakebyte on August 16, 2017, 06:00:58 pm
When I use Orwell speak to describe such laws, my issue is with their vagueness, not with the potential for more, harsher laws in the future. We don't have a solid definition for 'hate speech'. According to some of the more hyperbolic elements of the left, this includes facts, polls from well-respected institutions, etc. According to the same people, advocating for equality is the same thing as white supremacy. A very limited law is no problem, but my suspicion is that what we'll end up with is something that will justify the removal of any speech that is perceived as immoral by the cultural zeitgeist, even when that speech is objectively true.
If people didn't constantly call everything hate speech and everyone Nazis, I would feel better about it. But they do. So, what's hate speech? How can we be sure that only things that should be removed, will be removed?
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Gennos on August 16, 2017, 06:23:28 pm
snakebyte and erroratu: it is okay man you can say whatever you want! neo nazi: fuck niggers. snakebyte and erroratu: hey wait a minute... that's bad why would you say that? neo nazi: ????
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Snakebyte on August 16, 2017, 06:43:56 pm
Yeah that's how people work.
We don't have the right to force people to do things, only to convince them to do things. You can say whatever you want. I can then tell you that's wrong and dumb and stop it and try to convince you why I think you should stop it and if I do a good enough job and you're not crazy, you'll listen.
Not sure what your issue is here.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Erroratu on August 16, 2017, 06:54:54 pm
snakebyte and erroratu: it is okay man you can say whatever you want! neo nazi: fuck niggers. snakebyte and erroratu: hey wait a minute... that's bad why would you say that? neo nazi: ????
A person should be allowed to speak his mind Even the really really dumb shit . I agree on the fact that the man should be given the capability to scream whatever racial slur he wants but I will still demonize him for doing so Plus Just cause someone is allowed to do something doesn't mean they should You can ,by all means, shoot yourself in the leg with the gun you just bought and you wouldn't be breaking any law,but why on earth would you do that.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Gennos on August 16, 2017, 07:00:25 pm
you're a hypocritical idiot snakebyte. how can you condemn nazis, yet allow them to spew their nonsense? if you're actually against what they say then you wouldn't want them to say it in the first place. don't even try to convince me that you're against racism but you allow it to be spewed. the fact that you have no empathy for other races and you're trump supporter is enough for me to know what you really are. but you're too much of a coward to say it out right, so we have endure your low key bullshit defense of nazies instead.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Titiln on August 16, 2017, 07:08:12 pm
you're a hypocritical idiot snakebyte. how can you condemn nazis, yet allow them to spew their nonsense? if you're actually against what they say then you wouldn't want them to say it in the first place. don't even try to convince me that you're against racism but you allow it to be spewed. the fact that you have no empathy for other races and you're trump supporter is enough for me to know what you really are. but you're too much of a coward to say it out right, so we have endure your low key bullshit defense of nazies instead.
Because two wrongs don't make a right. Because stopping people from speaking with force is more wrong than any words can ever be. This is very simple. Also fuck you repeatedly for trying to say I'm racist, jesus fucking christ. You're basically saying something ethically equivalent 'murder racists or you're a racist'. That's fucking nonsense. Murder is wrong. This no-compromise us vs them mentality is wrong. Not listening to people when they speak and telling other people that they're racist is wrong. Stop being wrong.
If I was a coward, why the fuck wouldn't I be giving the same brainless condemnation of Nazis that everyone else is? That's what I'm supposed to do, right, NAZIS ARE BAD!!!11111, virtue signalling done, everyone cheers, time to go home.
That's cowardly.
What's brave is standing up for principles that actually need defending.
Everyone is anti-Nazi. Everyone is anti-racism. Saying that it's still wrong to murder them because they're people and have rights? I'm a coward for that? For standing up to people like you, who want to harm people just because they say things you don't like? For taking absolute bucketloads of shit on this forum from emotional idiots who don't think things through?
I don't think you know what the word 'coward' means.
General comments:
Relevant article is relevant: https://theintercept.com/2017/08/13/the-misguided-attacks-on-aclu-for-defending-neo-nazis-free-speech-rights-in-charlottesville/
edit: other relevant article is also relevant: https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20170814/15422237996/defending-hateful-speech-is-unpleasant-essential-even-when-violence-is-end-result.shtml
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Gennos on August 16, 2017, 08:00:16 pm
did someone ever spit on your face and tell you that you're inferior? because that happened to me and it felt like shit. you're born white, you have never experienced any discrimination. you will never understand how it feels.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Snakebyte on August 16, 2017, 08:07:36 pm
Quote
you're born white, you have never experienced any discrimination. you will never understand how it feels.
Wow dude, stop being racist.
edit: Okay, I'm going to explain that so people don't think I'm shitposting. Even putting aside the argument that yes, white people can be discriminated against for being white once in a while, you can be discriminated against and hated for reasons other than your race. You're basically saying that no white gay or trans person has ever suffered discrimination, because they're white. I don't really need to say how fucked up that is.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Erroratu on August 16, 2017, 08:18:49 pm
you're born white, you have never experienced any discrimination. you will never understand how it feels.
Are you implying you cant be discriminated against based on things other than race,such as religion and nationality? I myself moved to a country where my countrymen are considered low iq savages because most people that ran here to Austria during Bosnian wars were village men.
The shit that happened to you is bad,and shouldn't happen to anyone,especially since its discrimination based on something you have no way of changing, but what you said afterwards is some absolutely retarded shit
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Gennos on August 16, 2017, 08:34:48 pm
edit: Okay, I'm going to explain that so people don't think I'm shitposting. Even putting aside the argument that yes, white people can be discriminated against for being white once in a while, you can be discriminated against and hated for reasons other than your race. You're basically saying that no white gay or trans person has ever suffered discrimination, because they're white. I don't really need to say how fucked up that is.
nice strawmann but you're not homosexual either. im talking about you and you only, you're white, you're a trump supporter, and you've never experienced any discrimination. and i don't think im racist for saying that whites rarely get discriminated against based on their skin.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Snakebyte on August 16, 2017, 08:38:15 pm
You don't know a damn thing about me, and I'm not going to bare my life to some racist on the internet to make a point.
Identity politics is bullshit. The entire point of the internet is to be judged by what we say and do, not things about ourselves we can't change. That's what anonymity is supposed to be for. So I'm done talking to you any further. If I wanted to tell personal stories, I'd be on Facebook. (If this topic swings back to more general discussion, I'll probably pop back in.)
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: Erroratu on August 16, 2017, 08:38:21 pm
Are you dumb? That is the shittiest exuce for murder that I've ever seen. Even if what you say is true it is still the shittiest. You don't run over people with your car no matter how much they damage it.
He is under a violent mob assaulting him, anybody would panic. They were culprit in blocking the road and causing that situation. It's not like stopping and let be attacked is an excuse for them doing this.
Look, someone stopping to a mob.
Title: Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
Post by: MAO11 on August 19, 2017, 05:17:48 am
i would do the same and run them over. i would not gamble my safety in the hands of racist idiots.