This is where I put my thoughts on MUGEN (I should get a blog, but whatever)well, this is what the rules would be like if there were a MUGEN tournament.mugen tournament rulesmugen version: winmugen plusscreenpack: defaultstages: might be nice to have some variety, anyone want to make original stages(with original bgm)?recording: perferably a hd cameraPREPARATION:1: registration format:nametournaments to join(single, turns (2vs2, 3vs3, 4vs4), and co-op)name of characters, author/s, websitename of backup character, author/s, website2: bring your own controller/keyboard (might change when we get our own cabinet)3: prizes(don't know)FORMAT:1: no limit to entries. 1a: for co-op mode, you can choose a partner or be a free agent.2: double elimination, best 2 out of 3(for single/co-op).3: confirmed modes will be single, turns(2vs2, 3vs3, 4vs4), and co-op. They are considered separate tournaments.4: you may switch a character/team anytime after a match with your backup character.BANNED(oh boy)1: no offline characters2: no characters with stolen content3: no joke/cheap characters4: no evil/shin/orochi/etc. characters 4a: an exception would be characters with a creators name on them5: no boss characters 5a: unless based on a console version or original styled6: I'm not really sure about chibi characters.MISC.1: make sure your characters are from a known contributor 1a: lets just assume every Japanese creator is a contributor2: beta characters are ok (just make sure they are around 80%)3: don't skip the intro/win pose (you'll mess up their groove - see what I did there?)4: If you're not sure, ask at the registration thread5: be nice (or if not - at least tolerable/not annoying)6: If you are a contributor and do not want your character to be in the tournament, please say so at the registration thread and state the reason why you do not want your character to be in the tournament.comments? suggestions?
To me, character tiers are made based on two things: the character itself (and by extension, the game) and the matches of the best player of that character.the character is defined by its frame data, the properties of every state the character is in, and the game the character is in.How different would KOF be without rolls/hops?But we're talking about M.U.G.E.N here. If we were to make an accurate character, we would certainly include every aspect of the game in the character.Or would we?It can go both ways. Let's use GM's SF3 characters for an example. Pretty accurate, huh? Would it still be accurate without parries?I'm losing track here.Earlier I said that tiers were based on two things. Now we're talking about the second thing.The matches of the best player of that character.Games like SF2 are called mature games. Nothing is new about them.In games like those, what matters is how good you are with a character. How well you know every little quirk. SF2 is almost 20 years old, there must be a lot of top players.And there are.These guys study their main's moves. Their pros, cons, everything!And yet they don't usually win. They are the best, but they lose. The only explanation is the character themselves.We analyze those matches and take into account the character itself.Now do that a dozen times or more, and you get - a tier list!Of course, some games are new and don't have top players yet, but that's ok.How does that fit into M.U.G.E.N Discussion?Well, this is the internet, there must be some guys that are pretty good with a certain character, right?What if we invite those guys to have a tournament?We would have some good matches to analyze.I know, I know, "why don't you just study every character in your roster yourself?"The answer is: it's not enough.There are many characters out there, and I want to see what they can do.I want to see guys with too much time on their hands push the limits. To play and to win.Plus, we can prove those fighting game elitists that M.U.G.E.N deserves to be taken seriously.Maybe we can have a tournament with full games...note: I really like reading about fighting games, and game design in general. This is also why Sirlin is cool.
[Kira] said, June 08, 2008, 12:49:38 pmOmega Tiger Woods is High Tier.Well, he is considered a boss, after all.
Defeating Tiger Woods at that golf match was tougher than beating Mike Tyson in the original Punch-Out!
http://www.sirlin.net/archive/game-balance-part-1/This is very interesting. Especially this:http://www.sirlin.net/archive/game-balance-part-2-a-detailed-example/Read the comments too. The point here is that GGXX is balanced because there is a "skeletal system".The characters in the game are widely different from each other, but they share a universal system.One of the comments relate Magic: the Gathering to MvC2 and CvS2. I think this is a good observation,but I think that this can be more accurately compared to M.U.G.E.N. I mean there are thousands of cards just like there are thousands of characters.But with those thousands of cards/characters, there has to be a lot of broken stuff, right?This is the most common complaint with card games/M.U.G.E.N.The right answer is, yes, there are some game-braking stuff out there, but you only have to keep so many.Choose wisely.Now, on to the real stuff here:I can say that I have a somewhat balanced roster (loosely based on cybaster's by the way).But if I would make a tier list, I would talk about their source games.(for original characters, I just put them anywhere)Sometimes I play my low-tier characters, but that's ok, because I'm confident in my skills(and because it doesn't matter - I have no-one to play with ;_;).The point is, when you're good with a character (And if you know how to code) balance seems unimportant.It's the fact that our fanboy dreams can come true.
As a former Pro-Tour player, I can tell you that M:TG is actually a very broken game. Wonder why the "Power 9" cards are so expensive in the secondary market? Easy, they provide a great advantage to the player and are compatible with any deck. If the game was balanced, there won't be such price differences in cards at all.Also, there are unaccountable decks and combos that have broken the game from time to time, and Wizards of the coast's answer to them is banning/restricting the cards in tournaments and removing them from the basic set and maybe replacing them by poor substitutes. In low-profile tournaments, I was aware that 80% of the players would use the most popular deck at that time (such as Necropotence or Cadaverous Bloom based decks). I only had to build a deck to counter them and reaching the finals was rather easy. That should tell you on how much balanced the game is. For me, a balanced game is the one that depends on your skills and luck to win, since all players start with the same resources (ie: Chess). In Magic, 60% of the game is building a good deck, 25% are skill, 10% is luck and the remaining 5% is cheating. Not really a balanced game, per say.P.S: And yes, most professional players do "cheat" in Magic. Special mixing techniques, marking cards, drawing 2 cards instead of one using the saliva trick, playing the metagame, etc... were rather common tricks in tournaments (although players called them "jedi mind tricks" instead of cheats). By the way, did I mention that many professional Magic players are also renowned Poker players??
XGargoyle, please don't make shit up. For the love of god PLEASE don't make shit up.For starters, the Power 9 is only legal in vintage formats, which do not make up the majority of the pro tour if it is present AT ALL.QuoteAlso, there are unaccountable decks and combos that have broken the game from time to time, and Wizards of the coast's answer to them is banning/restricting the cards in tournaments and removing them from the basic set and maybe replacing them by poor substitutes. 1996 combo winter and Mirrodin affinity decks. That's... twice.QuoteIn low-profile tournaments, I was aware that 80% of the players would use the most popular deck at that time (such as Necropotence or Cadaverous Bloom based decks). I only had to build a deck to counter them and reaching the finals was rather easy. Congratulations, you can beat scrubs.QuoteP.S: And yes, most professional players do "cheat" in Magic. Special mixing techniques, marking cards, drawing 2 cards instead of one using the saliva trick, playing the metagame, etc... were rather common tricks in tournaments (although players called them "jedi mind tricks" instead of cheats).BULLSHIT. What the hell kind of tournaments are you playing in?Also, playing the metagame is cheating? GOOD LORD. You're TRYING to hate here aren't you. What'd MTG do to you, eat your children?
QuoteXGargoyle, please don't make shit up. For the love of god PLEASE don't make shit up.For starters, the Power 9 is only legal in vintage formats, which do not make up the majority of the pro tour if it is present AT ALL.I'm not making shit up. I'm just stating that there are lots of cards that really unbalance the game, and the Power 9 are just a small sample of them. I'm not talking about their legality in tournaments.Quote1996 combo winter and Mirrodin affinity decks. That's... twice.http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=judge/resources/sfrvintagehttp://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=judge/resources/sfrlegacyQuite a big list of banned and restricted cards for such a "balanced" game, huh?? Who said twice?QuoteCongratulations, you can beat scrubs.I appreciate the sarcasm, but I was stating how a good metagame can be positive to a player. If the game was balanced, knowing the cards of the other players wouldn't give me such advantage. For example, in a balanced fighting game, if I know previously what character my adversary will use, that shouldn't give me a real advantage.QuoteBULLSHIT. What the hell kind of tournaments are you playing in?Any tournament player uses cheats and tricks in some way. Another thing is that you realized them or not.For example:- Special mixing techniques to sort your deck or group cards together, just like magicians do. It's a common technique in both tournaments and casual play, but in tournaments, chances are the adversary would do the same too.- Marking cards: Easy, the cards themselves can be marked, using small and unnoticeable scratches, or with small dented sides, for instance. In addition, most card sleeves get worn with time and certain "features" can be spotted easily by the owner so just assign them to specific cards.- Drawing 2 cards at the same time: That's actually a funny trick if you can pull it, but otherwise it's a bit dangerous. Recommended for casual play, as you can get yourself banned from a tourney if caught. Use a card that lets you search on your library, while searching, find some cards you want to draw easily and wet your finger with saliva and place it on the card sleeve. The saliva will stick that card with another one, making them a single set. The next time you draw that card, you'll draw 2 instead. Use this trick together with special mixing techniques to arrange your cards as you please- Jedi mind tricks: Talk to your adversary about how unlucky you are with your hand, or act as a n00b so he/she gains confidence and makes silly mistakes. Break his momentum or time pace so he/she becomes confused, forgets something or makes silly mistakes. Lure your adversary into traps such as "don't forget your attack phase"...... I can provide you an extensive list of tricks/cheats if you want, by the way.QuoteYou're TRYING to hate here aren't you. What'd MTG do to you, eat your children?Don't get me wrong, I love MTG and have played it at both professional and casual level, enjoying the best of these 2 worlds (and still play it at casual level with my pals and our '96/'97 themed decks). It's just that I find the game completely unbalanced and, to tell you the truth, there are better things to spend your money worth than MTG.
Things have changed, cheating is not an issue at all in tournaments, and there are more safeguards in place than ever before.XGargoyle said, June 09, 2008, 03:11:50 pmFor example:- Special mixing techniques to sort your deck or group cards together, just like magicians do. It's a common technique in both tournaments and casual play, but in tournaments, chances are the adversary would do the same too.At any time after a player shuffles, the opponent may opt to cut the deck, at which point the player may shuffle again. (Repeat until both players are satisfied.)If an opponent believes that the player's shuffling method is not random enough, he may call on a judge to determine whether the player must use a different method.Quote- Marking cards: Easy, the cards themselves can be marked, using small and unnoticeable scratches, or with small dented sides, for instance. In addition, most card sleeves get worn with time and certain "features" can be spotted easily by the owner so just assign them to specific cards.In tournaments, card sleeves are a requirement to participate. Almost 100% of players buy new sleeves that day in order to prevent being disqualified for using marked sleeves. If they don't, they are immediately the object of scrutiny by the judges.Quote- Drawing 2 cards at the same time: That's actually a funny trick if you can pull it, but otherwise it's a bit dangerous. Recommended for casual play, as you can get yourself banned from a tourney if caught. Use a card that lets you search on your library, while searching, find some cards you want to draw easily and wet your finger with saliva and place it on the card sleeve. The saliva will stick that card with another one, making them a single set. The next time you draw that card, you'll draw 2 instead. Use this trick together with special mixing techniques to arrange your cards as you pleaseBelieve me this is by far the easiest cheat to get caught with. All it takes is a single opportunity to search a player's hand for a card. When you're sitting at the top 8, you'll have cameras on you as well.Quote- Jedi mind tricks: Talk to your adversary about how unlucky you are with your hand, or act as a n00b so he/she gains confidence and makes silly mistakes. Break his momentum or time pace so he/she becomes confused, forgets something or makes silly mistakes. Lure your adversary into traps such as "don't forget your attack phase"...It's not anyone's fault the human mind is so frail.Quote... I can provide you an extensive list of tricks/cheats if you want, by the way.No thanks, I play fairly.XGargoyle said, June 09, 2008, 03:11:50 pmQuite a big list of banned and restricted cards for such a "balanced" game, huh??Compared to the available card pool, no.
Stages are a work of art. They should be more appreciated.The sprites, music, codes - all brilliant.A good stage sets the tone of the fight.It pumps you up, it cools you down.A stage can be simple or flashy.It should not be irritating in any way.My choice of music?Pleasant. Certainly not anything that would make me go deaf.Vocals? Don't really like them. Maybe it's just me, but listening on how beautiful you are while I do a shoryuken seems wrong.I'll make a few exceptions. (KOF Neowave, MvC2)Also, The creator of the stage should know what he is talking about.Finally, a word of advice. You should only download from contributors. It's like a quality check.
Metagaming IS part of the game, and part of what makes it fun. In block or T2, there's hardly one deck which is stronger than all the other ones (Affinity = exception), and this mind game "what percentage of people will play what ?" is part of what makes a good dack builder or not.QuoteQuite a big list of banned and restricted cards for such a "balanced" game, huh?? WotC has learned with time, they now make much less unbalanced cards. Problem is that most cards are balanced in their respective blocks, but it's impossible for them to see how ALL the cards will interact with the cards from previous extensions. When they created all the new Goblin cards, nobody expected to see the Goblin Circus deck, with goblin recruiter becoming insanely cheap, and some people even using green to add Food Chain to the deck.It's easy to balance a game when it's just one set. But when you start adding a lot of extensions, you cannot predict all the interactions.QuoteFor example, in a balanced fighting game, if I know previously what character my adversary will use, that shouldn't give me a real advantage.KOF : Choi VS grapplers- Marking cards : you never play with deck protectors ?- Drawing two cards : too risky at high-level play.- Jedi mind tricks : nothing special, and can be done for any game I'm aware of.
c001357 said, June 09, 2008, 03:41:21 pmbut listening on how beautiful you are while I do a shoryuken seems wrong.What kind of crappy music do you listen to
K.O.D said, June 09, 2008, 03:44:44 pmc001357 said, June 09, 2008, 03:41:21 pmbut listening on how beautiful you are while I do a shoryuken seems wrong.What kind of crappy music do you listen to I don't know, It's just an example.
K.O.D said, June 09, 2008, 03:49:48 pmYou could've used a better example, music without crappy lyrics like that Alright then.Sometimes I see people talking about M.U.G.E.N on different websites.I post an informative post with links and stuff.I learned how to not push your hobbies on someone who might not understand them.or "suppressing your power level".What I am saying is when you see someone talk about M.U.G.E.N,please post a detailed F.A.Q.Maybe I could write a copypasta or something.I know you may see this as unnecessary, but trust me, ignorance is not bliss in this case.We should also take down those M.U.G.E.N torrents. Report them or something.Do your part. Start a thread on Shoryuken. Something Awful. Neogaf.The sites that matter. (It's also because they might have a M.U.G.E.N discussion before)Get started.
Nope, you will get bashed since all the forums i've seen which have a mugen discussion thread ends with people saying "mugen is broken shit",etc. since all they've seen are videos of shitty characters or are trying to fit into a crowd and repeating that.
