The Mugen Fighters Guild - King of Fighters E blog

swipergod

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

#161 May 01, 2008, 04:06:54 pm

The world is what you make of it

Well if you're a big Angel fan, then you might be more qualified to answer this question than I am. Let's say you have a friend who's more used to the Shotokan style of playing, but is looking to branch out and try new characters. They think Angel is interesting, but hard to figure out how to play. As Mugen allows you to program characters, you are able to remedy this. How would you make Angel more accessible for your friend. Honestly, I'm still a little concerned about how Angel turned out because I think she's still a little tough to play well (kinda like Whip) and I think I stayed a little to loyal to her old format.

I'm trying to give new players to the series a break and old players a little twist on the styles they're used to so my game isn't just rehash, but something new. A new style to master, if you will. Easy to pick up, means more people will challenge you with different characters (I once went to a SFA2 tournament where over 50% of the players used Akuma). I know there are super hardcore people out there don't really like something different and would rather play the same old Iori again for the 50th time. They've already let me know and that's fine. Some people spend thousands of dollars repairing the first car they ever owned instead of buying a new one. Nostalgia, familiarity, comfort. Hard things to replace. But really, no one ever said you have to get rid of the old one. Anyway, as an Angel player, feel free to to tell me some of the things you feel I should tread carefully with. No harm in listening on my end.

New KOFE website is up. Go visit it for all your KOFE needs:

https://mugenkofe.wixsite.com/info

Bastard Mami

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

#162 May 01, 2008, 04:47:45 pm

You might want to add those intros/winposes, i ripped them using the debug.

slightly nsfw, this happens after you get too many of the first two.

Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty

Dark Symphony

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

#163 May 01, 2008, 07:20:47 pm

I'm a llama!

I see what you mean about simplification, Swipergod, but perhaps you can leave a little room for those who want to make things more complex?

I think one of the most prevalent misconceptions going on right now is that simple games cannot be complex. The whole competitive nature of fighting games is the basis of simple games becoming complex. You can see this with numerous games. Black jack, checkers, pinball. Some people just hit until they're at a certain number in blackjack. Others take into account where the dealer must stand and what cards are on the table. Some people just move pieces to the end in checkers to get king'd. Others fortify positions and create mistakes. Some people just hit the ball in pinball. Others hold the buttons down at all times they're not swiping at the ball to create a smaller area for the ball to go through in case they can't react in time.

I think the key to fresh games is creating something simple that allows room for complexity. It gives people both a chance to have fun and a window to get into something deeper if they desire. Many developers right now are trying to lock out advanced tacticss and high level play because their quick fix for the dreaded "skill gap" is to just lower options and give advantages to losing players, which creates a conflict of interest as the players should be seeking to win.

Just something to keep in mind. A homing image with Chizuru would be cool because an opponent knows that at any time, I can throw an image right where they stand and that creates a mind game. But a lot of that game is lost if I can't fake them out and throw one elsewhere. It's not necessarily "complex." It's just two moves with different properties. But I, as the player, can make them as simple or as complex as I want them to be. The complexity comes from the application, not the execution.

Which brings us to Angel... I don't like characters who lack rhyme or reason, and she did big tyme. Too many moves that came out in arbitrarily placed situations that required too much memorization.

If I controlled the chain circle combos, they'd be far simpler.

I'd either limit the openers and really make Angel work for this canned devious mixup

or

I'd give her simpler openers and make the chains more about harassing and whittling down an opponent.

I'd give her 3 attacks max in a chain and then a finisher. The finishers would do more damage depending on how far into the chain you are as you've taken more risks of your opponent escaping. They'd also do more damage depending on how many hits you've landed.

With 4 attack buttons, each one would do one command in the chain. One would do an overhead. One would do a low. one would do a quick midlevel attack and one would do a throw.

The overhead, of course, to hit low blockers. The low to, of course, hit standing blockers. The mid to interrupt slow attacks and stuff jumpers and the throw to chuck rollers.

Each move would be given phat lag afterwards to keep Angel from linking non-chain circle normals. She could still cancel them into other chain attacks for combos.

The overhead would be slowest, invulnerable to low attacks.

The low would be average speed. Invulnerable to highs. Can link from the overhead for a guaranteed hit.

The mid would be relatively quick. Quick enough to stuff most attacks if you're coming in with some frame advantage from another attack and quick enough to hit jumpers. The move cannot be airblocked and knocks down but creates no juggle opportunities. You just get to restart the guessing game if you score a knockdown with it. Again, it only knocks down airborne opponents. It can be linked from both the overhead or low for a combo.

Again, you can use any combination of these 3 moves up to three times before the chain will end.

The final button, the throw, simple does a throw that has a bit of startup. one reason is so people can react to it if they expect it, the other is so that people have enough time to escape blockstun and roll. So basically, you use it to chuck blockers and rollers. It should be slow enough to allow people to leave hitstun so they can get thrown but quick enough to grab people out of guard cancel rolls (I can't remember if you had those in your game).

You'd also use that button to execute finisher commands. One is just a phat hit that links off of any successful chain circle attack. One is a counter with quick startup but big recovery. The point is to give Angel mad control but not too much if the opponent is patient but still enough to maintain a bit of control over an extreme turtle.

The counter is there to prevent a universal escape for any character as some characters will have moves that will most likely straight up eat any chain circle move due to quick start up and invincibility (see: Uppercuts).

I'd give her two supers out of it. These would not scale depending on where she is in the chain. One is just a move for damage. I hate Ranbu supers as they are overdone, but that's what she had before.

The other would be kind of a low damage super that would be safe on block. It allows her to opt to burn meter for a safe exit out of the chain. The super meter requirement would keep her from abusing it.

Chain circle attacks would give no meter on whiff, very little on block and a normal amount on hit.

Sounds complex (because every character is) but the applications are simple enough to where anyone can use it and accomplish something. You have the simplified commands that use only face buttons and no directions. Anyone can simply go into a high, low game until one lands and then do a finisher and still get most of the effective purpose out of the move.

Others have the option to really get into it and find out which chains link into others and can start baiting counters and rolls to improve their game.

So beginners can immediately see the brunt of the results of effectiveness and advanced players can start min/maxing their game plots.

I don't know if I wrote this more for you or for me...

swipergod

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

#164 May 01, 2008, 09:59:20 pm

The world is what you make of it

Hey [E]. Thanks for the additional sprites.

A little fun for everyone's favorite abandoned character. I'll see if I can fit them in somewhere. Missfairy's still working on Chizuru, but once she's done and she does a prelim AI for Angel, I'll forward Angel your way.

Dark Symphony.

Wow, and I thought my posts were long.

Guess I should've been a bit more descriptive in what exactly I did with Angel. ->

-Chain Circlet -> d,df,f + wk (hits low) -> d,df,f +wk or d,db,b +wk
-From d,df,f +wk -> d,df,f +wk (M block but more range) or d,df,f +wp (must be blocked low) -> d,df,f +wp -(finsh)
-From d,db,b +wk (this is a trip) -> d,db,b +wp (elbow drop that hits downed opponents)
-At any point you during the second phase of the circlet or later you can press wp+wk to do her dodge

This is what I meant by Kyo style branching. Very, very similar and accessible.

Fierce Chain Circlet is an unvarying combo that crouching opponents will have a hard time hitting you out of.

-F. Chain Circlet -> hcf +sk (hits high) -> hcb +sk -> d,df,f +sk -> f,d,df +sk

Off her rush "spear attack and her weak force punch she can link Phase 2 circlet moves. The circlet DM will also chain at any point after a Phase 2 move. If you watch the video, you can see all the adjustments made and all the circlet moves in action.

Thing is Angel doesn't have to rely on her initial circlet as much anymore. She can do the leap grab outside of a circlet, and the Circlet DM as a regular rush DM if you so choose. There's a lot of variety. What worries me, mostly, is balance. I think the risk and lack of speed Angel has offset her damage. But honestly, she can do a lot of damage, and pretty easily at that, should she connect.

Generally though, it seems we agree on idea behind Angel's modifications Dark Symphony, although the end results are different. So that's reassuring.

Well, we'll see how she plays for ya when she's released. Don't forget to post feedback if you can.

New KOFE website is up. Go visit it for all your KOFE needs:

https://mugenkofe.wixsite.com/info

Last Edit: May 02, 2008, 01:16:42 pm by swipergod

Shion

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

#165 May 02, 2008, 07:27:59 am

Lots of text in only a few posts, lol. Anyway, I'll hold of comment until I can actually play your version of Angel. I'm trying to be open minded about your revised gameplay. I don't however think you should make the DM useable without being a chain circle finisher, IMO it might overpower the character somewhat, but its hard to tell without actually playing as and against her.

I still think your doing a good job with this, even if we have some ideological differences, I look forward to seeing your Chizuru and Ryo as well.

swipergod

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

#166 May 03, 2008, 07:44:54 pm

The world is what you make of it

Thanks Shion. I tend to agree with the DM situation, but I don't like limiting it to a circlet combo (and a successful one at that). What I've done is taken away its ability to juggle. So it'll hit ground and air opponents, but not falling ones. That tones it down a lot. Also, the strong circlet combo cannot be varried, so the DM cannot be executed during that move.

I'm at about 50% with Ryo. I'm gonna look at Chizuru afterward. Since doing Angel, I've caught a few errors with all the characters and their hit states, so I've had to fine tune a few. Also gave Karate the Marco Haoh Sho Ko Ken. It looks nice. K' stupid clone issue is still giving me problems even with a nothitby SAC added in. I'll figure it out though.

What I'm gonna do is post 6 vids for extreme combos that my characters can do. Some take more skill than others. These exist even in the current releases, but I figure for those who like this kinda thing and haven't found them yet, I might as well show the few "forbidden techniques". I'll post the links once they're up.

Edit: Keep in mind these are tough to do in a real battle (they're hard to do in training mode).

Chizuru: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gzn1MignYTY
Angel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sP3EY9JiekM
Rugal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtlwA5GGKYQ
Kasumi: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ro_Nzm_QmU
Terry: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBhyQgMOqec
Leona: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4u-tXgpDo4I

New KOFE website is up. Go visit it for all your KOFE needs:

https://mugenkofe.wixsite.com/info

Last Edit: May 03, 2008, 09:15:08 pm by swipergod

Shion

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

#167 May 04, 2008, 03:06:00 am

About those hit states, If your planning on doing Clark or Daimon or any other grappler, you might wan't to get them ready next, since you'll probably have to do more fixing for the other characters hit states and such. It might cut down the work you have to do in the future if you make your characters compatible with the grapples now...I think...

swipergod

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

#168 May 04, 2008, 03:16:48 am

The world is what you make of it

Indeed. I've tried to universalize since the beginning, but I caught 2 major problems while doing Angel that I missed. Some characters' 5000 & 5010 spirtes were numbered 10,1,20 instead of 10,20,30. This was bad. Other weird numbers included 5111 instead of 5112 and so on. Not that I wanted to leave them, but more that I forgot to change them. I also had to remove states 5091 & 5092 which were cause invisibility glitches and weird states.

Unfortunately, Goro will not be in my game. Clark will be. He's in the works for the 4th wave. Other issues will come up, like Blue Mary's limb snapping and new special intro for pre-existing characters, but I'll get to them as they come. I'll overload myself if I have to concern myself with everything at once. The reg states have been changed though, so I'll have to update the original 12. Sucks, but c'est la vie. If anything, I can add Chizuru's power seal to everybody as a back up if people don't like the current power drain thing.

New KOFE website is up. Go visit it for all your KOFE needs:

https://mugenkofe.wixsite.com/info

Byakko

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

#169 May 06, 2008, 12:16:25 pm

Okay, I don't pay enough attention and didn't check this topic, so what I posted in the release topic, I'll copy-paste it here.

Baiken said, May 05, 2008, 08:42:29 pm

First link sends me to front page, second links leet me download the chars pack only. Can't get the chars+bonus pack. Apparently you still haven't quite fixed that, I thought your April 27 edit meant you did.

the PDF said:
bridge_evening by その他
その他 means "others". It's the download type. If you check, all the stages are labelled as "stage (others)".
Also the "direct link" on that stage doesn't work : the site is a dynamic news site, the "direct link" you give definitely isn't going to show the stage you meant to link to. You should link to the actual page, which would be a link such as this one.

I'm not exactly sure I should be allowed to juggle Rising Tackle over 3 times for over 460 damage.
PDF said:
Legs of Conquest (d,d +p) sk version
Also the Buster Wolf command says 2qcf+2P but it's 2K.

Whip : can't do String Shot ; Assassin Strike and Desert Eagle command as given in the PDF overlap (can't get DEagle)

Some debug text (Whip's Whip Shot for instance gives a "truncated to integer" error, I think there are some "missing required anims" too) etc.

"K' (Prime)" ? No it's dash, not prime.
K''s "Plus attack" after Crow Bite doesn't hit Rugal. His Blackout just doesn't come out. PDF says Air Trigger is qcb+P, but it's qcf+K.

Leona's Earring Explosive is written as qcb+K but it's qcb+P.

If I struggled to the end of my determination, to the end of my way of life with my followers, if the result is ruin, then this ruin is inevitable. Grieve. Shed tears. But you cannot regret.

swipergod

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

#170 May 07, 2008, 12:08:03 am

The world is what you make of it

Super huge thanks Baiken. This is good feedback.

I will check the PDF and correct all the bad inputs. Those inputs are the original inputs from the conception stages. Since creating the characters I've changed a few.

Don't know what's up with the missing animations. I'll check whip out. To my knowledge though, there are no missing animations with any character in terms of attacking.

K' is now known as K dash, but his original name was K Prime. He's the first/main Nest creations that other Nests creations were based off of. I remember the name K Prime appearing in promotional materials for KOF 1999, meaning in reference to Krizalid he was the main K as opposed to the "other K" or K clone. I believe I've seen wikipedia and a few other sources stated the names K Dash and K Prime as being interchangeable. I'm not creative enough to start making up character names.

Missing collisions could be the result of the K'/Rugal glitch. I'll look into it. Thanks again for all the bug/mistake catches.

News:

Ryo is finished: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jhIu4d1bwo

He's nothing fancy, but pretty balanced. Works as a punishment type character that can unload massive damage at once if your opponent starts getting greedy. Ruben's allowing me to upload the newer version of characters up at http://www.mugenhistory.com. I haven't uploaded them yet, but that'll be the place to upload the 4 new characters and the less glitchy versions of the original 12 once they're finished. Also, Walt's going to help out with the Robert sprite request I posted a while back, provided I give him the proper materials for the conversion. Last, but not least, missfairy has completed a newer, smarter version of her AI with Chizuru. It's actually quite good at making comebacks if you start to slack.

Joe will probably be finished by next weekend-ish. Missfairy will probably need another week or so to wrap up the other AI's. Angel's won't be a cakewalk after all. So expect the next release to be somewhere around May 24th-ish.

New KOFE website is up. Go visit it for all your KOFE needs:

https://mugenkofe.wixsite.com/info

Last Edit: May 07, 2008, 12:11:28 am by swipergod

Byakko

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

#171 May 07, 2008, 12:21:52 am

Quote

Don't know what's up with the missing animations. I'll check whip out. To my knowledge though, there are no missing animations with any character in terms of attacking.

The missing animations seemed to be for pretty much everyone... checking...
Geese, K', Mr Karate, Kim, Mai, Rugal, Terry, Whip are missing animation 5200.
Iori, Kasumi, King, Leona don't have that problem.

Similar to Terry being able to chain Rising Tackle ad vitam eternam, Mr Karate can chain "Rising Dragon" (I suggest looking for the real names once your near completion, because this isn't it

) three times in a row (in the corner, like Terry) for nearly 800 damages.

If I struggled to the end of my determination, to the end of my way of life with my followers, if the result is ruin, then this ruin is inevitable. Grieve. Shed tears. But you cannot regret.

walt

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

#172 May 07, 2008, 01:24:24 am

SNK is life

Baiken said, May 07, 2008, 12:21:52 am

nearly 800 damages.

in your 50 MUGENS and +9000 INTERNETS. lol.

swipergod

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

#173 May 07, 2008, 02:39:20 am

The world is what you make of it

*ouch* that'd be one steaming pile of pain. Gonna have to readjust the combo counter to fit in all those hits. (starts grumbling).

I may need to be corrected if I'm wrong here, but isn't state 5200 the capcom style midair recovery? ie) I hit a few buttons, my character flips and is ready to airblock? That's the impression that I'm under, while 5040 is the flip if I got jab punched in midair state. If so, my game doesn't use the capcom style recovery, just the KOF style quick recover as you hit the ground. If 5200 is a state that I should have, I can easily add it. I was going to add 5091 to everyone anyway, so it's just a few extra minutes per character.

I've fixed most of the problems you mentioned. K'/Rugal is fixed. Leona's motion has been changed (was supposed to be dcb +k). Terry is fixed. Fixing Karate. PDF will be up to date for next release.

K's blackout works. hcf +k. or qcf +p then quickly b +k.

Once again, thanks a lot Baiken. This has been a really big help.

New KOFE website is up. Go visit it for all your KOFE needs:

https://mugenkofe.wixsite.com/info

Byakko

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

#174 May 07, 2008, 03:58:58 am

(edit - speaking about the missing anim 5200) Yes, but even if you don't use it, you should still put in (at least) some blank animation with that number ; otherwise it shows on the debug screen as a "missing required animation". It would be better to make it so that the debug screen is clean.

Quote

hcf +k

??? Why did you make it an hcf instead of the usual qcf ?

If I struggled to the end of my determination, to the end of my way of life with my followers, if the result is ruin, then this ruin is inevitable. Grieve. Shed tears. But you cannot regret.

Last Edit: May 07, 2008, 02:40:12 pm by Baiken

swipergod

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

#175 May 07, 2008, 03:05:56 pm

The world is what you make of it

Thanks for the tip.

Guess I made it hcf cause I always assumed it was cause Athena's was. I don't think it cripples K' really.

New KOFE website is up. Go visit it for all your KOFE needs:

https://mugenkofe.wixsite.com/info

K.O.D

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

#176 May 07, 2008, 03:14:06 pm

what a shame

Read character faqs and play alot with the characters in KoF itself to avoid this sort of thing.

I thought you had changed the commands on purpose

Last Edit: May 07, 2008, 03:19:30 pm by K.O.D

Rote Zaungast

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

#177 May 07, 2008, 03:24:09 pm

about Angel, Angel is Angel and she's meant to play like that, she's already easy to use with 1direction + p/k commands...and the DMs are better played like that, or else it's only disgusting to see someone want to pull out her DMs that bad without even the required conditions

that's the essence which makes things what they are, you can change whatever you like in a blackboard, color, matter, or size etc. but if you remove its use from it, it's no longer a blackboard

"I’m never gonna grab anything by its balls, especially life. especially if life shows up in the incarnation where it would have testicles. if life showed up and had balls, the last thing I would do is grab those balls" - kyle kinane

swipergod

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

#178 May 07, 2008, 08:24:25 pm

The world is what you make of it

Thanks for the comments. I find that limiting Angel to one instant access DM and a counter one at that does not do well to balance her out with the rest of the characters. Why should I have to do a few moves first before popping out my DM? Fair to say that's the essence of what Eolith was trying to do with her character and design. Worked in 2002 from what I've seen in videos. However my game doesn't focus on combos. Specials cannot be interrupted into other specials and you cannot continuously juggle characters until the end of time. Plus most characters have more moves than they did in KOF 2k2. Look no further than Kim to see what I mean. Rather than reduce other characters movesets for the sake of balancing Angel out, I removed some of her restrictions. I still tried to retain most of her essence though.

Look at it through your analogy. If you insist on writing on a blackboard, you may. But there are other tools that have the same uses it does and some are more simple and less limiting than others. While the results will vary, the essence of what you were doing is the same. Writing a word, drawing a picture, using it to hang something, or whatever. I didn't remove the uses, just changed formats so to speak.

New KOFE website is up. Go visit it for all your KOFE needs:

https://mugenkofe.wixsite.com/info

swipergod

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

#179 May 11, 2008, 09:53:36 pm

The world is what you make of it

Update:

Joe's at 30%. Hopefully he'll be done by Wednesday. Missfairy's still working on Ryo's AI. I decided to coincide the release of the newer beta characters and the updated ones on mugenhistory, that I'd take up everyone's advice and make a screenpack and include a copy of Mugen pre-packaged. I had some friends who were confused with my first release and I realized not everyone who wants to try the characters understands things like screenpacks and even things like stage additions and/or wants to spend time with them (as simple as they are).

The screenpack is going to be simple and probably somewhat ugly because I really don't want to put all my effort into it at the moment. I still have close to 30 characters to complete, so it'll be pretty basic. Because I'll be releasing this as a game package, I will be switching to the games internal spritepack to create super sparks, hit sparks, shockwaves etc... This means that the character's effects may not animate correctly outside my screenpack. This will save me time, but will also enforce the fact that these characters should really only be played against each other and not against Ahuron's or Juke's for example as glitches will most likely occure.

Also, I'm adding Vanessa and Kensou to the roster, making the total characters playable in this game 43. 36 regs, 3 sub bosses (Geese and Takuma were a little tougher than the rest), 3 bosses and 1 Orochi. Expect the updated release at towards end of May. The 3rd wave of characters will include Yuri, Athena, Kensou and finally Kyo. Due to the work involved with each though, I may release them one at a time though, instead of a pack of 4. That's it for now.

New KOFE website is up. Go visit it for all your KOFE needs:

https://mugenkofe.wixsite.com/info

Dark Symphony

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

#180 May 12, 2008, 08:16:32 pm

I'm a llama!

Yipes. Well, i'm not surprised....

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