My understanding of nerfing was removing something to lessen the effectiveness or desirability of a character (taken straight from wikipedia lol).  Toning them down as it were.  Removing moves, to my understanding, is nerfing as the more moves a character has, the more effective they can be.  This isn't to say that that character isn't still going to be a bitch to fight against with less moves or that they won't be effective in general, just that they'll be less effective then they could have been.  So in KOF XII, SNK nerfed a lot of characters in comparison to other KOFs.  Hopefully for balancing issues, or perhaps to return to the basics.  Then again, they just may have run out of time to make more moves for everyone.   

Having a lot of moves that provide options over a number of situations DOES make a character better, but it's the effectiveness of those moves that determines that, not the number. Because there's nothing that says one move can't do many things. Dragon punch moves in many cases (particularly with the light versions) serve as both a good anti air, good combo filler, a good defensive move to counter rush AND good wake-up.

swipergod said, June 22, 2009, 06:02:40 am

I agree that nerfing is relative, but to your point about revamping making it difficult to compare, I'd point this out.  Everyone knows Gouki from Capcom.  If SNK had ported him over to KOF, gave him crazy priority, but removed some of his trademark moves like the Raging demon, regardless of the fact that he'd be in a new environment, I still think people would feel he was nerfed.  I can't see someone like Mature thriving with such a limited arsenal.  Sure the system is new, but I think that the more moves you have at your disposal, the more varied your fight can be and the more jams you can fight your way out of.  That's kinda the basis behind KOFE's balance.  Removing as many limitations as possible.  I think SNK would have given some characters more moves if they'd had more time, which is why this'll probably be like KOF '03 in terms of a starting point, but the end result means that characters aren't what they could've been and thus, are nerfed.

I will be focusing on my Raiden project, which means that Mature and Vice will probably have to wait until next month to get done.  Kinda excited about bringing Raiden to KOF.  So hopefully that'll translate into a quicker completion time for his resizing and programming. 

I totally agree that people would think an Akuma without the Raging Demon = nerfed Akuma.

However, them thinking that just means they're thinking that and they're wrong. People really have to stop looking at number of moves to mean anything. If a character has 20 TERRIBLE moves and crappy normals etc., the character is terrible. With that established ,we can see that it's not about the "number of moves."

SF's Guile has survived, really, on two special moves and really stumps people as to what he possibly could be given besides those moves that wouldn't be useless filler since those two moves pretty much cover all the bases (no pun intended). K9999 may not have been the best in the games he appeared in, but he wasn't a slouch and didn't need more than 2 then 3 special moves to hand out packages of grade A grief. In fact, he relied mostly on command moves to do so.

Having a lot of moves that provide options over a number of situations DOES make a character better, but it's the effectiveness of those moves that determines that, not the number. Because there's nothing that says one move can't do many things. Dragon punch moves in many cases (particularly with the light versions) serve as both a good anti air, good combo filler, a good defensive move to counter rush AND good wake-up.

You COULD spread that over 4 moves but the character wouldn't be any more effective. In fact, they'd be LESS effective because that's 3 extra things the brain has to register.

I guess my point is that it's not about the moves or number of moves but how effective what the character has is. There is absolutely nothing that won't allow Mature from dominating with two, even one move.

I think, in the community of MUGEN, the common consensus is that more moves = better. I am just trying to show that there's a disconnect between # of moves and effectiveness and that a characters ability isn't proportional to the number of moves they have. A good right amount of Mugen characters (not speaking of present company) are directionless simply because they just... have things. There's no thought into purpose.

And lastly, more moves = harder to balance. So you have to find the right balance between effectiveness and interest. A character still has to be interesting.

I think that the quicker a person realizes that moves can be added to a character for "fun factor" the better.