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DC Comics Universe (maybe discussion?) (Read 409829 times)

Started by Edtion, June 05, 2011, 10:00:42 am
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Titiln

Re: DC Comics Universe (maybe discussion?)
#981  March 18, 2015, 01:45:15 am
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the threats of violence brought up in dc and rafael's statements were sent to the people that wanted the cover changed, not to the artist
Bea said, March 18, 2015, 12:57:40 am
Which can lead us to conclude that Twitter rage from either side wasn't the cause that this cover was dropped.
considering what i said above (dc and the artist acknowledging the people that wanted it changed and how they got threats) this makes no sense

Bea

Re: DC Comics Universe (maybe discussion?)
#982  March 18, 2015, 01:52:22 am
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Titiln said, March 18, 2015, 01:45:15 am
the threats of violence brought up in dc and rafael's statements were sent to the people that wanted the cover changed, not to the artist
Bea said, March 18, 2015, 12:57:40 am
Which can lead us to conclude that Twitter rage from either side wasn't the cause that this cover was dropped.
considering what i said above (dc and the artist acknowledging the people that wanted it changed and how they got threats) this makes no sense

People who buy the book wanted change, yes. I stated this too.
But those concerns were likely voiced through other means than twitter (email, actual letters, phone calls, etc), since you pointed that most people on twitter using that tag didn't want the cover changed.
Hence, I believe that twitter rage wasn't why they dropped it. Market feedback was the cause.
Princess Adora: "My friend saw She-Ra take her dress off in the shower. She said she has an 8 pack. She said She-Ra is shredded."

SF2NES is dead. Long live SF2NES.

Jmorphman

Re: DC Comics Universe (maybe discussion?)
#983  March 18, 2015, 02:01:35 am
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For what it's worth, and this is just mindless speculation on my part, it sounds like the regular Batgirl creative team also played a part in getting the cover taken down (because they feel it is tonally inappropriate and they didn't know of it nor approve of it).

【ＭＦＧ】gui0007 said, March 18, 2015, 01:39:57 am
WTF? All this thing because of a cover? Jesus Christ.
Well, covers don't exist in a vacuum, they exist to sell the comic. They are the first thing people see when they pick up the book, and consequently set a tone; a cover should work to further the themes of its book, and this cover definitely doesn't. Covers can't and shouldn't be totally divorced from the book they're wrapped around.

Titiln

Re: DC Comics Universe (maybe discussion?)
#984  March 18, 2015, 02:08:31 am
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twitter is massive and it's the easiest way to communicate with people and companies. market feedback was overwhelmingly positive if twitter is any indication. you can't gauge by emails and calls because those are private. we don't know how many of them were positive. it's obvious the amount of people that were against it was small in comparison to those that didn't really mind the alternate cover, the artist likely decided to pull out from fear of repercussions from the extremely vocal minority

Jmorphman

Re: DC Comics Universe (maybe discussion?)
#985  March 18, 2015, 02:16:15 am
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The "extremely vocal minority" is exactly the target audience of the book. And it's a pretty big audience, because the book is selling well. As far as I could tell, until the cover got canned the response was on the whole more negative than positive, because most of the people who were paying attention to it were the people interested in that book. But it's hard to gauge things just using Twitter, and Abuquerque almost certainly wasn't trying to gauge which side had more interest anyway. He himself says that he took it down because it people were upset by it, and I think we should take him at his word.

Bea

Re: DC Comics Universe (maybe discussion?)
#986  March 18, 2015, 02:24:03 am
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Twitter doesn't represent the market audience for the book.
As a company, you have sets of people from each your products market that you tend to test how well something will be accepted by that target audience.

Considering the size of DC and that they are owned by Warner, they had likely ordered a research to access how well that would be accepted.
Because you know, money and sales are at stake.
I run a much smaller company and every new thing is tested with a control group of the intended market. I don't see a much larger company not doing it.
It would be too damn stupid and could potentially cost them a lot of money.
Princess Adora: "My friend saw She-Ra take her dress off in the shower. She said she has an 8 pack. She said She-Ra is shredded."

SF2NES is dead. Long live SF2NES.

Titiln

Re: DC Comics Universe (maybe discussion?)
#987  March 18, 2015, 02:53:38 am
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Jmorphman said, March 18, 2015, 02:16:15 am
The "extremely vocal minority" is exactly the target audience of the book.
you're assuming that everybody the book is targeted to hated the cover which makes no sense
Quote
He himself says that he took it down because it people were upset by it.
that's what i'm saying though, he took it down because some people were upset. that's a shitty precedent. i don't want a handful of people basically censoring things because they're upsetting to them

Bea said, March 18, 2015, 02:24:03 am
Twitter doesn't represent the market audience for the book.
twitter as a whole doesn't, but i think it's fair to say most people that care enough to tweet about the issue one way or another are part of the market audience for the book since they show some amount of interest in it.

Quote
As a company, you have sets of people from each your products market that you tend to test how well something will be accepted by that target audience.

Considering the size of DC and that they are owned by Warner, they had likely ordered a research to access how well that would be accepted.
Because you know, money and sales are at stake.
I run a much smaller company and every new thing is tested with a control group of the intended market. I don't see a much larger company not doing it.
It would be too damn stupid and could potentially cost them a lot of money.
so does this mean they didn't do any market research? i dont understand the point you're trying to make

Bea

Re: DC Comics Universe (maybe discussion?)
#988  March 18, 2015, 03:02:06 am
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It means that they did market research, and the cover was dropped.
They likely did market research because everyone remembers the Milo Manara's Spider Woman controversy.

Also, Twitter exploded AFTER the news that the cover was cancelled were published.
From then on it became a battle of vocal SJW and SJW haters trying to disagree with each other. Hardly worthwhile market data.
Princess Adora: "My friend saw She-Ra take her dress off in the shower. She said she has an 8 pack. She said She-Ra is shredded."

SF2NES is dead. Long live SF2NES.

Jmorphman

Re: DC Comics Universe (maybe discussion?)
#989  March 18, 2015, 03:03:29 am
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  • reach for the lowest one you can.
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    • network.mugenguild.com/jmorphman
Titiln said, March 18, 2015, 02:53:38 am
you're assuming that everybody the book is targeted to hated the cover which makes no sense
Well, not literally everybody, but it definitely looks like it's a larger proportion of that audience that doesn't like it than the proportion that's OK with it.

Titiln said, March 18, 2015, 02:53:38 am
that's what i'm saying though, he took it down because some people were upset. that's a shitty precedent. i don't want a handful of people basically censoring things because they're upsetting to them
The artist chose to take it down of his own accord, no one forced him to. He chose to do so because of the reactions it caused; he didn't need to make that call. He could've very easily ignored them if he wanted to, but he chose to listen to the voices of the fans of the book. That is in no way censorship.

Duos.act

Re: DC Comics Universe (maybe discussion?)
#990  March 18, 2015, 03:40:07 am
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So if I think the cover is tasteless in context with the tone/audience of the character in combination with the fact that it's completely irrelevant and inappropriate to the story does that make me an SJW?  Because that's how I feel. 

Speedpreacher

Re: DC Comics Universe (maybe discussion?)
#991  March 18, 2015, 03:45:04 am
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Most variant covers are completely irrelevant and inappropriate to the story.
Nevermind, there's nothing I can do
Bet your life there's something killing you
It's a shame we have to die, my dear
No one's getting out of here alive
This time
What a way to go, but have no fear
No one's getting out of here alive
This time
It's a shame we have to disappear
No one's getting out of here alive
This time, this time, this time

Jmorphman

Re: DC Comics Universe (maybe discussion?)
#992  March 18, 2015, 03:51:11 am
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  • reach for the lowest one you can.
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But most don't undermine the premise of their book, though.

however, it's tough to beat the Anita Blake variant with Wolverine when it comes to complete irrelevance!

Duos.act

Re: DC Comics Universe (maybe discussion?)
#993  March 18, 2015, 03:53:55 am
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Bea

Re: DC Comics Universe (maybe discussion?)
#994  March 18, 2015, 02:15:10 pm
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To put a final nail in the coffin, here is an interview the artist did for a Brazilian news portal:
http://entretenimento.uol.com.br/noticias/redacao/2015/03/18/a-industria-de-hq-sempre-foi-machista-diz-brasileiro-de-capa-da-batgirl.htm

In the interview he states the following:
Quote
Uma revista voltada para o público feminino adolescente não deve ter uma capa pesada como essa. Independente da questão de quem está certo ou errado, a capa que eu fiz não serve a proposta que deveria ter

On free translation to English:

Quote
A book aimed to a female teen audience shouldn’t have a heavy cover like this. Regardless of who is right or wrong, the cover I did doesn’t fit the proposal it should have
Princess Adora: "My friend saw She-Ra take her dress off in the shower. She said she has an 8 pack. She said She-Ra is shredded."

SF2NES is dead. Long live SF2NES.

Iced

Re: DC Comics Universe (maybe discussion?)
#995  March 18, 2015, 02:22:19 pm
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  • 日本は素晴らしい国です。


People are now making similar covers to prove it would be inapropriate with any character

Bea

Re: DC Comics Universe (maybe discussion?)
#996  March 18, 2015, 02:25:50 pm
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That one would be a fitting alternate cover for a book like Death of Superman.
The tone of the cover is pretty dark and grim. It fits darker books, not one for teen girls. :P
Princess Adora: "My friend saw She-Ra take her dress off in the shower. She said she has an 8 pack. She said She-Ra is shredded."

SF2NES is dead. Long live SF2NES.

Iced

Re: DC Comics Universe (maybe discussion?)
#997  March 18, 2015, 02:30:24 pm
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  • 日本は素晴らしい国です。
people can now shout on twitter loud enough that in fear the artists will censor themselves, its a great time to be "MESSAGE REDACTED BY CENSORS"

Titiln

Re: DC Comics Universe (maybe discussion?)
#998  March 18, 2015, 03:14:27 pm
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alternate covers that feature a character completely irrelevant to the comic aren't a new thing. 25 joker themed covers are planned for june
http://www.comicbookresources.com/article/exclusive-the-joker-stars-in-june-variants-for-superman-batgirl-and-more
i don't think there's a problem if you don't like it, it's just an alternate thing and you can go for the original, i think there's a problem when you actively call for its cancellation because it hurts your feelings. this is also very subjective but i don't really believe the artist who went from "my intention was never to hurt or upset anyone through my art" (i hurt feelings) to "the cover I did doesn’t fit the proposal it should have" (it didn't suit the purpose). i've seen this happen too many times by now, the real reason the artist backed out was fear of the angry mob. of course he wouldn't outright say that, he would say whatever PR appropriate answer that would calm the masses down the most.

it's not the normal type of censorship, it's the new web 3.0 censorship. it's what iced said. if you and a group of people can manage to be loud enough about something, you'll get shit cancelled or changed. you'll also make other artists fear this angry mob and censor themselves

Bea said, March 18, 2015, 03:02:06 am
It means that they did market research, and the cover was dropped.
They likely did market research because everyone remembers the Milo Manara's Spider Woman controversy.
you're talking about "control groups" representing your target market and mentioning previous examples like spider woman, which sounds like the kind of market research done before showing the product. if they had a control group of the "target audience" which seems to despise the alternate cover so much then it would've never seen the light of day
Quote
Also, Twitter exploded AFTER the news that the cover was cancelled were published.
From then on it became a battle of vocal SJW and SJW haters trying to disagree with each other. Hardly worthwhile market data.
this isn't true at all, #changethecover was pretty active and against changing it before it was cancelled, and it was already a battle between sjw and people that dislike sjw. i even tweeted about it before it was changed

Bea

Re: DC Comics Universe (maybe discussion?)
#999  March 18, 2015, 03:18:39 pm
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The Manara's Spider Woman cover was an example of what happens when you don't run stuff through your control group.
Princess Adora: "My friend saw She-Ra take her dress off in the shower. She said she has an 8 pack. She said She-Ra is shredded."

SF2NES is dead. Long live SF2NES.

JustNoPoint

Re: DC Comics Universe (maybe discussion?)
#1000  March 18, 2015, 03:22:33 pm
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I'd think they should have at least ran the variant as a special variant that goes primarily to Comic Stores. I understand and agree with all the reasons to why the cover didn't suit the product. But as an alternative and not the main/only cover available I agree with Titiln. Pressure to simply make it not see the light of day is way too much.

I could have seen it more so on that Spider Woman cover. Since IIRC it was the only cover you could get for that issue.
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