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DC Comics Universe (maybe discussion?) (Read 410255 times)

Started by Edtion, June 05, 2011, 10:00:42 am
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Titiln

Re: DC Comics Universe (maybe discussion?)
#1001  March 18, 2015, 03:27:50 pm
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manara's was a variant cover.

i don't know why you bring up manara's spiderwoman as an example of market research. if they were aware of it (how sensitive some people can get regarding alternate covers especially ones featuring women) then they would've done more research and probably wouldn't even have shown the joker cover because they would have known it would be more trouble than it's worth

Bea

Re: DC Comics Universe (maybe discussion?)
#1002  March 18, 2015, 03:30:51 pm
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Just No Point said, March 18, 2015, 03:22:33 pm
I'd think they should have at least ran the variant as a special variant that goes primarily to Comic Stores. I understand and agree with all the reasons to why the cover didn't suit the product. But as an alternative and not the main/only cover available I agree with Titiln. Pressure to simply make it not see the light of day is way too much.

I could have seen it more so on that Spider Woman cover. Since IIRC it was the only cover you could get for that issue.

Yeah, and then my 7 years old niece is taken to a Comic store and sees that cover. Then what? Or you think that I, my parents or my niece parents don't take her to specialized Comic stores? Or that other teen girls don't do the same?
This is business and that cover would be bad business, as it would hurt sales with the target audience and could even drive it away from the product.
Dropping it out was the right thing to do, plain and simple.
It is extremely likely that the artist wasn't aware beforehand of the public of the book he was drawing for, which is why he drew something that heavy and so unfitting for the target audience.
It is a very nice piece of art, but an extremely poor choice for a product. And for DC and Marvel comics are products before art.

Edit: I bring it out as an example of market research because Marvel DIDN'T do any market research with it beforehand. And ran it. Then there was a major stir and two other Manara's covers that he was scheduled to work were cancelled.
This one was stopped before it hit the stores.
Princess Adora: "My friend saw She-Ra take her dress off in the shower. She said she has an 8 pack. She said She-Ra is shredded."

SF2NES is dead. Long live SF2NES.

JustNoPoint

Re: DC Comics Universe (maybe discussion?)
#1003  March 18, 2015, 03:44:00 pm
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Quote
Yeah, and then my 7 years old niece is taken to a Comic store and sees that cover. Then what? Or you think that I, my parents or my niece parents don't take her to specialized Comic stores? Or that other teen girls don't do the same?
Every place that sells comics I have ever been to has mixed all sorts of comics. To get to this comic the child will see all sorts of covers many of which will be much worse.
But that is besides the point. You can easily grab that cover and be like "Ugh, what is this? This is a dumb cover. Let's get this one instead."

Titiln

Re: DC Comics Universe (maybe discussion?)
#1004  March 18, 2015, 03:48:34 pm
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Bea said, March 18, 2015, 03:30:51 pm
Yeah, and then my 7 years old niece is taken to a Comic store and sees that cover. Then what?
this is a moot point because she's not the target audience by half a decade

Bea

Re: DC Comics Universe (maybe discussion?)
#1005  March 18, 2015, 04:00:44 pm
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Just No Point said, March 18, 2015, 03:44:00 pm
Every place that sells comics I have ever been to has mixed all sorts of comics. To get to this comic the child will see all sorts of covers many of which will be much worse.
But that is besides the point. You can easily grab that cover and be like "Ugh, what is this? This is a dumb cover. Let's get this one instead."

Many will be much worse but none would should her greatest super heroine completely devoid of all power she has and with sheer terror stamped on her face.
That would require a lengthy explanation, even if she didn't buy the book with the cover and could very well cause loss of buyers for the book.
I could sit and explain for hours the cover and reassure her. But she often goes to the store with my parents, or her parents. They wouldn't. And wouldn't buy the book. Nor let me buy it ever again.
And what about other girls that aren't my niece?

Would you publish a comic for your webcomic that goes completely against the idea you're trying to sell to your public? That could shock them and make them drop reading it?
Princess Adora: "My friend saw She-Ra take her dress off in the shower. She said she has an 8 pack. She said She-Ra is shredded."

SF2NES is dead. Long live SF2NES.

Iced

Re: DC Comics Universe (maybe discussion?)
#1006  March 18, 2015, 04:01:38 pm
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a seven year old in a comic store would be exposed to crossed and a lot of other violent and scary comic covers, im not sure that it would be a good idea

I think the target audience was the fourteen to 23 age group in the case of bat girl. with batman being mainly 25 to 35

more variants




Last Edit: March 18, 2015, 04:10:01 pm by Iced

Bea

Re: DC Comics Universe (maybe discussion?)
#1007  March 18, 2015, 04:02:49 pm
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Princess Adora: "My friend saw She-Ra take her dress off in the shower. She said she has an 8 pack. She said She-Ra is shredded."

SF2NES is dead. Long live SF2NES.

Titiln

Re: DC Comics Universe (maybe discussion?)
#1008  March 18, 2015, 04:06:40 pm
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batgirl is rated t (12 and older)

Bea

Re: DC Comics Universe (maybe discussion?)
#1009  March 18, 2015, 04:09:23 pm
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And would you stop a young nephew or cousin from reading a Superman, Batman or Marvel book because it is rated T (12 or older)? Or playing a videogame with a T rating?
The mood of the book works pretty good for her age regardless of that T rating and she is growing a taste for comic books thanks for that.

Princess Adora: "My friend saw She-Ra take her dress off in the shower. She said she has an 8 pack. She said She-Ra is shredded."

SF2NES is dead. Long live SF2NES.

Titiln

Re: DC Comics Universe (maybe discussion?)
#1010  March 18, 2015, 04:10:30 pm
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what you're doing is like complaining about mortal kombat's fatalities because they're too violent for a 13 year old

Bea

Re: DC Comics Universe (maybe discussion?)
#1011  March 18, 2015, 04:13:19 pm
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Titiln said, March 18, 2015, 04:10:30 pm
what you're doing is like complaining about mortal kombat's fatalities because they're too violent for a 13 year old

Mortal Kombat has a Mature rating (17+). There is no comparison there because you know what you're getting into when you bought it.
That cover is NOT fitting for a T rated book. Specially one aimed at girls.
Princess Adora: "My friend saw She-Ra take her dress off in the shower. She said she has an 8 pack. She said She-Ra is shredded."

SF2NES is dead. Long live SF2NES.

JustNoPoint

Re: DC Comics Universe (maybe discussion?)
#1012  March 18, 2015, 04:32:09 pm
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Bea said, March 18, 2015, 04:00:44 pm
Would you publish a comic for your webcomic that goes completely against the idea you're trying to sell to your public? That could shock them and make them drop reading it?

Obviously not. But when you are dealing with super heroes (I am) stripping away their power and making them scared is just another day in their life.

If her parents are only looking at covers to determine if a book is suitable for their daughter they might want to look deeper at what they are buying to begin with.

Not to mention that if all it takes to stop buying this series is 1 cover with her crying because of a scary clown that seems a bit excessive.
If that's the case they might see a cover from an older bat girl series and get offended too I'd think. Since they are not looking past the name or the cover.

Jmorphman

Re: DC Comics Universe (maybe discussion?)
#1013  March 18, 2015, 04:59:35 pm
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Yeah, I don't buy the whole "artists have to self-censor themselves for fear of those terrible evil internet mobs" for a second. Why can't we just take people at their word? Why construct an elaborate conspiracy theory? If this vocal minority is so small how does it seemingly determine the actions of everything in the comic book industry? Why does Rafael Abuquerque, a very successful comic book art with projects at both DC and Image, need to be in absolute terror at the hands of an "extremely vocal minority" for him to want to drop the cover? Especially when he's done a Batgirl cover already that was extremely well received? At what point do we draw the line between self-censorship and personal choice?

and also manages to evoke the Joker while staying true to the current creative vision (this is for Batgirl: Endgame, where she fights off an army of Jokerized zombies)

Bea said, March 18, 2015, 02:25:50 pm
That one would be a fitting alternate cover for a book like Death of Superman.
The tone of the cover is pretty dark and grim. It fits darker books, not one for teen girls. :P
I don't think it's fitting for Superman at all! Superman wouldn't cry because of Doomsday! It's nonsensical.

also is the Death of Superman even still canon in the nu52

Just No Point said, March 18, 2015, 03:44:00 pm
But that is besides the point. You can easily grab that cover and be like "Ugh, what is this? This is a dumb cover. Let's get this one instead."
I think the idea is that people know that stuff like the Walking Dead or Crossed will have graphic covers unsuitable for kids, but no one should expect that this version Batgirl might have a variant cover tucked along with the the normal one, a cover that not only completely undermines the direction the normal creative team has been pursuing but also one that undermines Batgirl as a strong, independent character.

Many comic stores also have plastic covers or something similar for really explicit stuff too so children couldn't theoretically come upon it by looking.

It's not the same kind of disturbing as stuff with graphic violence, but it is meant to be disturbing emotionally. And it is, because Albuquerque is an great artist. He evokes a powerful, awful moment in Batgirl's life, and makes us feel as helpless as Batgirl does in that image. And that's completely out of place for this character right now; I'm not sure it would be appropriate elsewhere (because it is out of character for Batgirl to be helpless and crying in that situation, even with the great trauma the Joker is forcing her to revisit), but it's definitely the wrong choice for this book right now.

Iced said, March 18, 2015, 04:01:38 pm
http://www.comicbookresources.com/imgsrv/imglib/0/0/1/SM-Cv41-joker-variant-solicitation-55598.jpg
this is how you do a variant cover

Bea

Re: DC Comics Universe (maybe discussion?)
#1014  March 18, 2015, 05:11:34 pm
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Just No Point said, March 18, 2015, 04:32:09 pm
Obviously not. But when you are dealing with super heroes (I am) stripping away their power and making them scared is just another day in their life.

If her parents are only looking at covers to determine if a book is suitable for their daughter they might want to look deeper at what they are buying to begin with.

Not to mention that if all it takes to stop buying this series is 1 cover with her crying because of a scary clown that seems a bit excessive.
If that's the case they might see a cover from an older bat girl series and get offended too I'd think. Since they are not looking past the name or the cover.

Then I don't get why you believe this is a good alternate cover. It does exactly that.
It goes completely against the current Batgirl character and mood.

Putting her in danger is fine. She is a super heroine, she is meant to overcome danger. But there she is completely frozen in terror and helpless.
It would scare the hell out of young girls who follow the book.

Also, I know exactly what I am dealing with there, with my brother and his wife. I am sure they aren't the only religious nuts out there that don't want to take part on what their kids are doing, but are quick to judge whatever by it's cover.

Now, onto Mr. Jay.
Yes, that Batgirl: End game cover is awesome and the small amount of blood shown isn't detrimental to it, nor negative for the target audience.
And that Superman/Joker cover is definitely an exquisite alternate cover.
Regarding the Doomsday x Superman cover, while it is out of character for Superman, the tone would fit a darker or more mature Superman comic as an alternate cover.
I have no idea if Death of Superman is still cannon on NU52, as I don't follow the Superman book there. It is just too plain bad. :(
Princess Adora: "My friend saw She-Ra take her dress off in the shower. She said she has an 8 pack. She said She-Ra is shredded."

SF2NES is dead. Long live SF2NES.

Gennos

Re: DC Comics Universe (maybe discussion?)
#1015  March 18, 2015, 05:21:01 pm
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Just No Point said, March 18, 2015, 04:32:09 pm
But when you are dealing with super heroes (I am) stripping away their power and making them scared is just another day in their life.
you're exactly the type of writer that i like.
my favorite stories are always the ones that push the hero to his limits and explore his weaknesses
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Re: DC Comics Universe (maybe discussion?)
#1016  March 18, 2015, 05:29:43 pm
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Jmorphman said, March 18, 2015, 04:59:35 pm
also is the Death of Superman even still canon in the nu52

They (Grant Morrison's run) mentioned it a bit early on, but like with a lot of things mentioned early on, who the hell knows anymore.

For a long while I had no idea if Lex Luthor was just a mad Scientist or if he still owned a company or not.

Last Edit: March 18, 2015, 05:35:48 pm by -Whiplash-

JustNoPoint

Re: DC Comics Universe (maybe discussion?)
#1017  March 18, 2015, 05:42:30 pm
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*blanket response to both Bea and JMM to wind this down before we start repeating ourselves too much --
All those are great reasons but it still doesn't seem that extreme of a cover. I feel anyone that it evokes strong emotions on to the degree they feel it should be banned are being too excessive for something so meek. At this point I suppose we are just arguing from our own viewpoint/value system so I don't think it'll get anywhere.

I think that the cover is not too graphic for children. And it's hard for me to put myself into a mentality that does. It feels extreme to me.

Bea said, March 18, 2015, 05:11:34 pm
Then I don't get why you believe this is a good alternate cover. It does exactly that.
It goes completely against the current Batgirl character and mood.
I think we had a different definition of this though. Batgirl spins off from Batman. It may go against the current mood but it's an alternative that pays homage to a darker story that is tied to the series she branched from. And (to me) it doesn't pay homage in a way that puts the current character in a different light or is too far away from the current to break it. But again, I don't think it's too much for a kid anyway. This is the disconnect we are having and I guess it's one we won't be able to actually come to an agreement on :P

supervegeta said, March 18, 2015, 05:21:01 pm
Just No Point said, March 18, 2015, 04:32:09 pm
But when you are dealing with super heroes (I am) stripping away their power and making them scared is just another day in their life.
you're exactly the type of writer that i like.
my favorite stories are always the ones that push the hero to his limits and explore his weaknesses
Thanks! I'm way too hard on heroes. As far back as I can remember I always cheered for the villain!

Bea

Re: DC Comics Universe (maybe discussion?)
#1018  March 18, 2015, 06:01:21 pm
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Right now, no, we won't come to an agreement to that.
But I believe we will once your kid reaches the same age as my niece. :P
Princess Adora: "My friend saw She-Ra take her dress off in the shower. She said she has an 8 pack. She said She-Ra is shredded."

SF2NES is dead. Long live SF2NES.

JustNoPoint

Re: DC Comics Universe (maybe discussion?)
#1019  March 18, 2015, 06:05:12 pm
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I also have a 7 year old step son. :P

Iced

Re: DC Comics Universe (maybe discussion?)
#1020  March 18, 2015, 06:06:23 pm
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im not sure that a seven year old should be reading a book that has references to one night stands and drunken parties without adult supervision anyway.
So any parent that allows them to read a book for a age group above the kid's  should be prepared to do a lot of parenting as they help the kid through the books .

I was like 10 or 12 when I started reading super hero comics, before that I read disney books.
Last Edit: March 18, 2015, 06:12:38 pm by Iced
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