YesNoOk
avatar

It's made of...PIECES!! (Read 6663 times)

Started by FeLo_Llop, November 09, 2012, 04:40:13 pm
Share this topic:
It's made of...PIECES!!
#1  November 09, 2012, 04:40:13 pm
  • ******
  • ¡Ni p*ta ni santa! ¡Digo!
So, I've recently started a topic on the Request Board about The RUmbleFish' sprites,  but has no asks. No dramma on this :P

Well, the thing is, those pieces were used for making some full bodies. Even Namco did it in Namco x Capcom:
http://spriters-resource.com/psx_ps2/nxc/sheet/20422

Looking at some SFZ, KoF, etc sheets, I noticed that, most of teams uses at least, a similar technique(not the same, tho), I even used this "some" parts for Viper(and Rose!), and some spriters too.

Then, I thought that coding by parts would be VERY tedious, but; what if pasting parts are done from MSPaint/Photoshop/etc?

So, I made a sketch:
Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty

As you can see, it's an incomplete thing: just some torsos in different poses, upper legs, arms, etc. FULL body in the front, back and side. Now imagine that those parts could be pasted above a stickman. And you, spriter, just have to make different stickmen for a movement. Pasting those parts et voilà, you're saving time.

So, my question is...is this feasible in Mugen?

PROS:
- Sprites will have a similar look to each other in the sheet.
- Saving time to the spriters. They "just" do each part and fill the empty spaces in the final "frankensprite"
- MORE original characters could be done using this technique.

CONS:
- If you can't draw a single line, forget it :/. Knowing to draw is pretty important here.
- Spriter NEEDS to look SO carefully while pasting, sinze empty spaces could make the final product a bit unconsistent.


So, basically is that. Excuse my TERRIBLE English. Have a nice day!
I swear there was something cool here!!
Last Edit: November 09, 2012, 04:49:41 pm by FeLo_Llop
Re: It's made of...PIECES!!
#2  November 09, 2012, 05:01:21 pm
  • avatar
  • ******
That technique is often used in games like the Namco X Capcom RPG, but in 2D fighters, Rumble Fish is a bit of an exception. Capcom draws the sprites by hand, and I think SNK makes a 3D model and draws over it. Not sure about others like Arc System Works.

At the end of the day, Mugen needs one single flat image for each sprite. It's possible to code each body part with a helper with separate sprites, but that breaks when someone throws you and puts you in a custom state with a custom animation.
On top of that, even if it was possible to just put a stickman and paste the body parts on top of it through the code, that method would require the stickman to be the perfect size, because the coder usually makes the collision boxes according to the sprite. The scale has to be quite exact. Of course, the collision boxes are never pixel perfect, but it's a bother if the stickman is noticeably out of scale on some sprites. Even, this partly prevents the coder from just working on a stickman and wait for the spriter to put the sprites together : the coder would have to redo the collision boxes afterward, and then make sure the attacks don't suddenly miss because of a difference of a few pixels.

The technique can easily be used to prepare each sprite if the spriter likes it, but each sprite needs to be the full body when inserted into the SFF file no matter what. It only works for the one drawing the sprite, and I suppose it only works for them if they don't get confused by the technique. Of course, with practice, it can be a LOT faster.
I will just point out that if you rotate the body parts, you can't make the shading depending on the position, since that will change ; so the shading can't be too elaborate, unless the spriter makes a pass over that after building the full body. And on top of that, since the rotation has to be done on the sprite of the body part and not by the engine, it will break a bit everywhere and the spriter would need to make another pass to fix that. Rotating pixels can be pretty damaging at this resolution.
If I struggled to the end of my determination, to the end of my way of life with my followers, if the result is ruin, then this ruin is inevitable. Grieve. Shed tears. But you cannot regret.
Last Edit: November 09, 2012, 05:04:58 pm by DKDC
Re: It's made of...PIECES!!
#3  November 09, 2012, 05:10:18 pm
  • ******
  • ¡Ni p*ta ni santa! ¡Digo!
Oh. Well, I haven't expressed too well. I didn't want to say "putting both stickman and parts" via coding. I wanted to write "make a BMP in MSPaint", putting stickmen and just applying in the bmp the required parts. Making all the stickmen transparent wouldn't take more of a minute using Photoshop.

once finished this step, the BMP just have a bunch of bodies(as most of sheets), which could easily be easily translated into pcx. (after fixing mistakes and etc). So, you will just putting a full body sprite, as when you rip Chun Li, or whoever from any game.

Anyway, I'll try to make a shot/tutorial during this week, since I guess I express myself better with images than with words(in English).

Thanks for your time :D!
I swear there was something cool here!!
Last Edit: November 09, 2012, 05:15:23 pm by FeLo_Llop
Re: It's made of...PIECES!!
#4  November 10, 2012, 11:15:52 am
  • ******
  • ¡Ni p*ta ni santa! ¡Digo!
An image is more than 1000 words:



The image that the coder will work with is the final one, similar to the one which's after Nina's screenshot.

Anyway, I'm starting this bunch for making an actual tutorial.

Thanks for your time!!
I swear there was something cool here!!
Re: It's made of...PIECES!!
#5  November 10, 2012, 12:16:18 pm
  • *****
  • Fuck you.
    • Philippines
    • Skype - Markpachi
    • mugenguild.com/forum/topics/-opensource-mps-psds-stages-and-resources-please-put-them-good-use-172321.0.html
This is very interesting. You're saying that you'll sprite the "body parts", piece them together, and do some minor editing? Something like this?

Rest in peace, Tamez. Thank you for everything.
Re: It's made of...PIECES!!
#6  November 10, 2012, 06:36:21 pm
  • ****
  • Some day I'll finish this thing...
    • Argentina
At one point in time, I became friends with the dude who made this Flash game called Bloody Rage (http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/64427. If you don't like Newgrounds, just Google it and you'll find it in lots of other sites).

Because the game was made in flash, the movement options were kind of limited and some of the other things a bit awkward, but overall it was an extremely impressive flash game. He even made a graphics editor that would allow you to edit and import individual body segments later to create custom characters. It was pretty neat.

I suggested that for a possible sequel, he might want to implement additional animation by allowing each segment to rotate. I would contribute by drawing each body part from eight different directions (only for the parts we needed to, of course. If the segment looked the same from every angle, it'd be pointless to redraw it 8 times).

I guess the neat thing to do for MUGEN would be to create a template with body parts from multiple directions and let artists create different "dresses" for this template (as it, karate gi's, armors, or even licensed characters, which could be mixed and matched later, a la Soul Calibur 4/5 create mode)... then coders without graphics could create makeshift sprites by putting these together and filling in certain gaps or touching up small little awkward spaces when necessary.

Is that what you're going for?
Last Edit: November 10, 2012, 06:47:27 pm by Graphicus
Re: It's made of...PIECES!!
#7  November 10, 2012, 11:06:05 pm
  • ******
  • [E]
    • Mexico
An image is more than 1000 words:



The image that the coder will work with is the final one, similar to the one which's after Nina's screenshot.

Anyway, I'm starting this bunch for making an actual tutorial.

Thanks for your time!!

work on this properly, as it can b inferred in teh spanish topic parts of thi alrady voerlap with my method so I can see if it is possible to make a program that makes this easier.
Re: It's made of...PIECES!!
#8  November 10, 2012, 11:54:17 pm
  • ******
Re: It's made of...PIECES!!
#9  November 11, 2012, 06:03:03 am
  • ******
  • [E]
    • Mexico
yeah, the program you mentiond already does most of what felo needs.
Re: It's made of...PIECES!!
#10  November 11, 2012, 03:50:44 pm
  • ******
  • ¡Ni p*ta ni santa! ¡Digo!
- Markpachi: Yes! definitively yes!! That's what I was talking about, but my expression in English is pretyt bad U_U!!

- Graphicus: Cool :D. Well, I didn't wanting to go with "parts of each character", but it's a nice idea too. Mine was just more simple, making the parts of one character for making possible a singe one(e.g: Nina,Akira, etc...). So, making pieces and pastng them for doing a basic character. If people want to add "x part" of certain character, they should sprite by themselves. My idea is, just shortening spriters' job. Putting the pieces over a stickman and then filling the empty parts(e.g: that area of shoulder-chest). Then, the coder will have a sheet as those provided by ripping games.

- [E]: [E]xactly. Well, our method have in common that, making "original" parts. Yours comes from spriting over existing characters' parts, and mine is just doing them from scracth/draw-scan.

- G.o.D: Grazie mile! The problem of this method is just...well, when overlaying the torax, if it comes above a line of an arm, then pasting it as blind. But MAYBE working with Photoshop layers at any transparency could work for avoid this.


OK, now some new: Upper arms(270º movement) with shoulders(in two directions) and forearms are finished. My objective was to draw a generic woman, but it became Nina Williams, xD! I'll post it later.

Have a nice day!


EDIT:
I swear there was something cool here!!
Last Edit: November 11, 2012, 05:38:06 pm by FeLo_Llop
Re: It's made of...PIECES!!
#11  November 11, 2012, 08:11:50 pm
  • ****
  • Some day I'll finish this thing...
    • Argentina
Ah, gotcha... yeah, my system is more on a "Universal" level", but you're right. If most of the character moves are always facing a certain direction, it's overkill to sprite so many, since most of them aren't going to be used. I'm still thinking I'll be putting my method into effect with a tutorial or something soon. Someone might get some use out of it... :P
Re: It's made of...PIECES!!
#12  November 18, 2012, 11:59:09 am
  • ******
  • ¡Ni p*ta ni santa! ¡Digo!
Exactly, Graphicus :)!

Well...frontal torso 360º is done.

- Sketch:

- Basically, this is how I did every part...pinkm fill with flesh colour, second light, and then the last lighter colours:

- Here are the bunch of torsos. Don't feel this as "porn", please:

- And...just for the Hell of it. It turns and turns!!


Also: Side upper legs are done 360º too. Now it's time to a mid-revolve, back and frontal. Then I'll go with missing arms, lower legs, knees, heads, feet and hands.

Just WOW!!

Have a nice day!!

     

I swear there was something cool here!!
Last Edit: December 18, 2012, 10:57:45 am by FeLo_Llop
Re: It's made of...PIECES!!
#13  December 18, 2012, 10:57:57 am
  • ******
  • ¡Ni p*ta ni santa! ¡Digo!
It was about a resurrection!(needed 1 day more and I could imitate Gill!!). Well, this is what my Guinea Pig(also known as Nina...UI'm feeling like Dr. Boskonovitch, mwahahaha) can do right now:

Static Pose. With colour separation(Yes...second one it's the crappy outfit from the living action Tekken movie):


Here's a short preview of what some pieces can do(wanted to do the DbD outfit but...well. This is not the final one):


Not "woah! the big thing!!", but from this at least 3 attacks could be done...;)!!

- Couldn't resist to make a Twisted Mind with what's done, xD


Reference image at the pixels' side :D

Some stuff in her T5&upper p1 without the cammo details:





Have a nice day!
I swear there was something cool here!!
Re: It's made of...PIECES!!
#14  December 18, 2012, 01:54:43 pm
  • ******
Is that close to the method used for the Soul Calibur mobile game?
Re: It's made of...PIECES!!
#15  December 18, 2012, 10:15:34 pm
  • ******
  • ¡Ni p*ta ni santa! ¡Digo!
I swear there was something cool here!!
Re: It's made of...PIECES!!
#16  December 19, 2012, 09:47:44 pm
  • *****
  • EL FUCKO GRANDE
  • I'm back, nerds
    • Canada
Limb-based code in MUGEN is pretty much impossible due to states and all that shit, I would assume.
However, part-based characters themselves aren't impossible. Most recent example I know is glook's RBO Male Magician, but the most obvious example is pretty much all of Babel Sword.

In fact, Tatsu released his tool he made and used to make part-based sprites frame by frame with his latest BS build.
Maybe you could contact Tatsu on how to use it or just learn it through experimentation. It works on coordinates via .ini files IIRC.
Re: It's made of...PIECES!!
#17  December 23, 2012, 01:44:20 am
  • ******
  • ¡Ni p*ta ni santa! ¡Digo!
Limb-based code in MUGEN is pretty much impossible due to states and all that shit, I would assume.
However, part-based characters themselves aren't impossible. Most recent example I know is glook's RBO Male Magician, but the most obvious example is pretty much all of Babel Sword.

In fact, Tatsu released his tool he made and used to make part-based sprites frame by frame with his latest BS build.
Maybe you could contact Tatsu on how to use it or just learn it through experimentation. It works on coordinates via .ini files IIRC.

No, no. I said somewhere up there, that after making the pieces, these could be pasted in MSPaint/Photoshop, allowing coders to have finished sprite sheets with full bodies. Not by parts, which will be heavier and such.


I hate my terrible English U_U
I swear there was something cool here!!
Re: It's made of...PIECES!!
#18  January 19, 2013, 10:11:13 pm
  • ***
  • SEIYAA!
    • Sweden
    • artbyjiggeh.tumblr.com
Cool stuff. I don't know about methods to automatically overlay appropriate body part sprites on top of a skeleton, but even doing it manually it might have some merit as a method to create sprites. I'm a little skeptical though... I mean, it might help, and I'm very curious to hear about your results if you keep experimenting with it, but I think it's an unavoidable truth that you will end up having to edit sprites manually quite a bit to make them look good. Another issue is that this method - without further editing - doesn't really accommodate for a lot of subtle details. Flexing muscles, expanding/breathing chest, facial expressions, hand poses, not to mention good old "squash and stretch".

I have a feeling that using these kinds of methods will only get you something that looks sort of lifeless and robotic (TRB certainly had this problem). Simply put this might be a method to create sprites in an easier, quicker or more efficient way, but it will not create better sprites. That might not even be the point of course, but still.

I hope to see more updates on this!