The Mugen Fighters Guild
M.U.G.E.N Central => M.U.G.E.N Discussion => Topic started by: Baby Bonnie Hood on January 21, 2012, 03:19:03 am
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I don't know what to think anymore.
Characters of perceived subpar quality exist. One side uses their knowledge of fighting gameplay and MUGEN coding to give them harsh criticism and put them down as horrible, the other merely plays with them and has fun with them for various reasons including the nature of the character itself and the crossover aspect that MUGEN is famous for.
As I learned more about MUGEN, I slowly drifted to the criticizing side. Because I've learned a character can be made better. If I see a character that I like yet has perceived horrible gameplay, it bothers me until it's made better whether by my or others' hands. But now, I question the point of doing so. Because people don't seem to pay much attention to my balancing attempts.
I must confess that someone set this off, made me post this because I have to know and get it off my chest.
That someone is JudgeSpear.
He recently posted a few new MUGEN videos (it's not a comeback, he just wanted to make them), and stated right away that he's using his old roster from 2006. Which means the likes of Yoma and Mario still have unbalanced gameplay.
I asked him about it, and he said "I stopped the whole 'omg balance' nonsense long ago. Just focus on having fun with the engine instead of trying to preach ideals in my videos.".
He's obviously not gonna change his mind so I didn't pursue it further, leaving with a warning on possible disagreeing parties.
His response: "Honestly, I think it is time you stopped caring about what other people think and just do your own thing. You are still clinging to those old ideals that drove me away from MUGEN in the first place.".
Yeah, he knows I've become one of said disagreeing parties. At least I didn't degenerate the comments section into a shoutfest. Ironically none of the other comments in his new videos mentioned anything about balance anyway, singling me out as a bitter has-been.
Where did I go wrong? What the hell am I doing?
Should I even bother to make MUGEN content anymore if no one's gonna care anyway...?
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Different people like Mugen for different reasons. I am sure that the majority of players indeed doesn't care about balancement.
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If people cared about balance, MvC2 wouldn't still be played. Despite the fact that it's unbalanced as fuck, it's fun. JoJo is probably one of the most broken games out there, and I fucking love it to death. It's fun as hell. Same applies for MUGEN.
Do what you want. If you want to balance, it doesn't hurt to do some needed nerfs. Just observe what professional games do, and base off those, and usually you're off to a good start.
If we valued balance to the point where everything has to be equal, then we'd only use KFM.
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Balance is impossible in Mugen.
But I would like SOME semblance of balance in what I play as which is why I can't completely agree with JS' "Balance be damned" approach.
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he's a prick anyway
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Balanced compared to...?
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There is a massive difference between something being balanced and something being coded well. A subpar character is not one that is too powerful. It's one that plays like shit. Moves break regularly, or simply by existing ruin a match.
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I'v been a Marvel Vs Capcom fan ever since I got into fighting games, so I don't really care about balance. That being said, balance is something that one should always strive for. I simply put fun and depth above balance. That doesn't mean I think a game is better if it's unbalanced. The ideal game would be both very fun and very balanced. It just so happens that there are very few games like that.
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I wouldn't say "very balanced," so much as "as balanced as is possible without things feeling like shit."
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Just do what you want to do. Just, you know, don't make it outlandishly broken or something like that.
And hey, if not that many people like it, you should at least get that sense of accomplishment; that you look at your finished project, and you say to yourself, "I MADE this happen."
And it feels DAMN good.
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I wouldn't say "very balanced," so much as "as balanced as is possible without things feeling like shit."
I think, in theory, it is possible for a game to be perfectly balanced, as well as perfectly fun. It would just be too damn hard, and would take too much time.
But that's just my belief.
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Simple Answer: Fuck
OrochiGill Judgespear
Longer Answer: You're never gonna get balance BUT HERE'S A CHECKLIST
- if you find that you can get a long, ridiculously damaging combo with no effort, that's bad
- conversely if you find that you cannot chain ANYTHING and your damage output is terrible, that's bad
Just find a happy medium somewhere. If all else fails, just have a rousing game of "PotS: The Fullgame"
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Maybe my problem is that all of my recent contributions have just been updates to old stuff. Here I am insisting on my old favorites, while everyone else has long since moved on to newer characters.
I really should make something new, something that no one else has made before. Problem is, it's easier to edit a character than to make one from scratch. And it doesn't help that my spriting skills stink.
I'm so fucking lazy.....
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do what kelexo does
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Yeah, make us Psychopath KOF13 characters. :P
Or alternatively, do as MelvanaInChains or Masa (I think) and make chars from obscure games only you know about.
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Just focus on having fun with the engine instead
Said as if it contradicted the concept of balancing, which is what these people (you know, them) actually think, that the definition of fun is no balance.
I'm having fun balancing things. Argue with that
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have fun and kickback. if whats fun for you is balancing, more power to you, but its something you dont need to tell someone twice. You can point out code errors, and bugs, and those, ofc should be fixed, but no one is forced to rebalance their stuff even when the stuff becomes glaringly worse because of it.
Just do what is fun to you, and that will attract others likeminded. I dont know much of judgespear but I remember he did some readaptations of warner's with english soundpacks and the like, that was pretty cool of him to do and it probably benefitted a lot of people that enjoyed those characters.
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Yeah, make us Psychopath KOF13 characters. :P
Or alternatively, do as MelvanaInChains or Masa (I think) and make chars from obscure games only you know about.
Aka be a MUGEN Hipster
I dont know much of judgespear but I remember he did some readaptations of warner's with english soundpacks and the like,
I woulda liked him better if he just left it at that. But then you have things like his tendency to be an egotistical prick and how back in the "balancing" days he would bash stuff that actually wasn't as bad as he made it out to be while using shit that was way worse BUT HEY
At least he wasn't as bad as the majority of the folks that registered on his forums. They were a lot worse.
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I've come to accept the fact that perfect balance is nigh impossible to achieve. As long as everything I have feels and plays reasonably so, a sort of general standard, then I'm happy.
The problem with Mugen is that there's so much content available, you'd go nuts trying to nail everything by yourself, especially with compilations. Is it wrong to seek balance?? Absolutely not!! One of the problems with balance is that not everyone looks at balance the same way.
Perfect example: I have Kong's Silver Samurai. I could go on the rate-a-roster thread and say "I've got a balanced roster, here's who I have" and get slammed for Kong's work. To me, Kong's version is a bit more balanced and far more completed than Juan Carlos variant. A lengthy debate would most certainly follow. My point is I think Kong's release is balanced. Many others might disagree.
Or you could just stick with that aforementioned "P.o.t.S. the Game." That sounds balanced to me. ;)
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Me?
I will leave you with this:
While it is true that most high quality characters are balanced, most balanced characters are not high quality.
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What about "warusaki the game"?
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Yeah, make us Psychopath KOF13 characters. :P
Or alternatively, do as MelvanaInChains or Masa (I think) and make chars from obscure games only you know about.
Aka be a MUGEN Hipster
hey! it's more fun than people assume
also *mass
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Balance makes sense depending on the setting. If you wanna recriate a given game, it makes sense to see if every char is accurate, IMHO, NOT balanced. If I wanna toss SamSho 1 vs MvC2 chars, it doesn't matter if they are accurate- it WILL be imbalanced.
Thus, instead of thinking char-per-char (unless there is something game breaking), try thinking game-vs-game.
The best way to implement balance while not going nuts is to have some house rules. Do the chars have chain combos? Do they have supers? How many specials? Parry? Roll/Dodge? Desperation attacks? Stuff like power, speed, defense, recovery and priority, too.
A long time ago I was thinking something about a possible measurement, to develop a little software so comparisons can be made...
Then I actually figured out I don't care that much. If someone picks Rare Akuma and I pick Hanzou from World Heroes, obviously none of us have a brain in the first place. It's gonna be so one-sided it doesn't matter, nor is fun.
But, for instance, SF2/Samsho 1-3/WH/FF/AoF/MK mixups make quite a lot of sense to me, from a gameplay PoV. I don't find those THAT imbalanced (of course there is clash, etc. etc., but who cares if you just wanna have some fun?). MvC/DS => looong combos, plenty supers, etc. etc. I guess KoF/SF3/SFA are in the middle.
An easy yet arguable option is to just edit out some basic stats for those chars with less system advantages. Capcom did this in SFA3: the groove that gave you just 1 super bar and no air guard meant that you dealt more damage.
The question I think you should make yourself is WHY do you want to play and with WHOM? For a versus game with another human, ask about wether they care for balance or not. It might even be better (and easier) to drop MUGEN altogether and go to the arcade if you wanna play some people. Some others will not mind that much but still would like it to make some sort of sense (I fall into this category). And some others will not care about using DarkEVILSSJZombiePikachu vs KFM.
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Yes, it's wrong to seek balance.
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Well said LD. But there are arcades around here?? I'm on the east coast....
I just go for my MAME after shutting Mugen down. ;D
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Trust me, there are less arcades over here. In my whole country they probably don't add up more than 15. The closest real arcade I have is at least a 4 hour drive.
Relevant: http://elecbyte.com/forum/index.php?topic=662.0
Starts up shitty, then I post the idea I had, and Loona posts his.
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What about "warusaki the game"?
yoko for top tier whore
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yoko for top tier and whore
Fixed.
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Where did I go wrong?
Right around here:
I question the point of doing so. Because people don't seem to pay much attention to my balancing attempts.
MUGEN gets most of its fame from the crazy-ass "SSJ99 Orochi Gokugeto vs Shin Shao Khan"-type fights. As silly as they can be, they're real attention-grabbers. It's only natural that those who like those kinds of characters will populate the community, overshadowing those who favor balance.
Yeah, they will most likely skim past your stuff and other stuff like it. Most of them probably don't give balance a second thought, and you can't change that.
But why would you want to? Why should it matter? "Different strokes for different folks."
Both sides are fun in their own ways, and if you can, and want to make one of those sides better for yourself and others, then why wouldn't you?
Like half of the posts in this thread (and JudgeSpear himself) have already said, just do your own thing.
When it comes to MUGEN balance, if you wanna do it, you do it for yourself. Everyone else is just a bonus.
Also this:
And hey, if not that many people like it, you should at least get that sense of accomplishment; that you look at your finished project, and you say to yourself, "I MADE this happen."
And it feels DAMN good.
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Right. And isn't that what Mugen is all about??
Customization. We can make any roster any which way we want. We then share this content with fellow members on communities. It's also a shame that superior releases from plenty of talented authors are overshadowed by shock value videos that contain shitty releases by crappy authors.
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It is always good to seek balance, but it is also good to keep your characters to their specific playing style.
Depending on the character you are making, it is right to make MVC characters based on MVC standards.
Same thing applies for other games.
However, it is right to seek balance if the character itself is "overkill" or not competitive enough.
Unless, balance should not be ought onto "BOSS" characters, though, you don't want tons of BOSS characters with really really cheap gameplay.
Balance is a good thing to seek, it just all depends on the perspective of what is "fair" when making a character in the game of "Mugen".
Some others did post very good examples based on "setting". Others may say preferences comes into play.
As long as you make creations and people enjoy it, that is what it all matters. Feel good when accomplishing something (Quoted), and don't be too stressed, seeking balance is a good thing, if you understand the main underlying meaning (Mugen wise).
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Exactly. And then you can agree with friends and go with those crazy imbalanced matches. As long as my buddies and I agree on, say, SF2 Ryu VS MvC2 Cable, then were OK. It's imbalanced as shit, but really fun in the end.
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Yes, it's wrong to seek balance.
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balance in a mguen forum ::)
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It's a matter of preference to be honest.
Personally, my sense of balance comes more of a sense of how a character functions, like say, are there any glitches that break a character or make him annoying to play as or fight, gameplay mechanics that I don't think should be there. (aka why I'm not fond of any of nuke wars/overly flashy battles.) Hell, if I wanted to pit an MVC char vs a Full Custom char, hell I'd do it as long as both chars are actually well made.
If you like Flashy Orochi Akuma VS Omega God Nuclear Chuck Norris, I'm fine with that. I might question something, but in the end, if you like it, go ahead.
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balance is in the eye of the beholder
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Relevant: http://elecbyte.com/forum/index.php?topic=662.0
Starts up shitty, then I post the idea I had, and Loona posts his.
Aaww, thanks for remembering (http://mugenguild.com/forumx/index.php?topic=102114.0), I thought nobody else did and I really would have liked to sharpen the idea a bit more back then.
Still, outside closed games, the problem remains that Mugen is pretty much a Noah's Ark of possible interactions waiting to go wrong, and its open nature over time discourages people from doing more interesting things with it in fear of getting their effort taken to something else, and to make something like a closed games takes more work and detachment than most people seem capable of, especially considering the work invariably adds attachment to any project.
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What about "warusaki the game"?
yoko for top tier whore
Sorry about the off-topic, but I'm curious about the flaws of this character. I never understood why there are so many opinions about this.
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if you want balance you will probably need to do it yourself. And it depends heavily on context.
It gives you a reason to keep your roster small lol. Some characters/games just dont mix well.
waru's ex groove is kinda broken imo. So if you disable that then maybe...
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Sorry about the off-topic, but I'm curious about the flaws of this character. I never understood why there are so many opinions about this.
I'm not sure but I think it has something to do with her huge damage, really loose comboability and general overpowered-ness.
She's easy to use and overpowered.
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And ridiculous amounts of strikers
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Sorry about the off-topic, but I'm curious about the flaws of this character. I never understood why there are so many opinions about this.
I'm not sure but I think it has something to do with her huge damage, really loose comboability and general overpowered-ness.
She's easy to use and overpowered.
Which makes her a perfectly ok mugen character, but she si weird amongst the rest of waskarai creations.
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I think waru made that char for the sake of variety, so an all-warusaki-roster has a little bit of everithing in it. She would be like the character you'd use if you want an easy ride or a mid boss if you encounter her while playing as another char.
On a side note I fill all nonPotSlike chars with waru's EX-Groove-only-patched chars and the result comes pretty balanced o.o, its one of the reasons i made Eliza so she fits between both types of characters.
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I remember seeing one of Yoko's videos for the first time and flipping my lid. Her moves and style were pretty sweet. Aesthetically speaking, I think she rocks. Therefore, if she gives off a bit too much damage and is a little unbalanced, that's OK by me. I can't play as her anywhere else, so I'll deal with her slight oddities.
Or I can just open up her .cns file and change her values to match what I want.
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She was sprited by a professional mangaka and since it was a joint project and waskarai is teh one who did the less work in the team you can blame most of her faults on waskarai having to code her whichever way the kabao wanted her to play.
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Professionally sprited eh?? That's cool. It certainly shows!!
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Is waskarai a friend of the electrobyte ?
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no, but he seems to be related to warsuki.
i wodner what's up with kabao, since his queen's blade manga is complete http://www.mangaupdates.com/authors.html?id=3716
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Each time someone talks about Kabbao I remember about that Geese and his hyper attack.
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...I'd just like to point out that one single guy with a drill hardly counts as a ridiculous amount of strikers :ninja:
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Odd, thought there were more.
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That's the only one, as far as I recall. Kamina doesn't count since he only attack you when she catches you with her special grab, since it forms part of that attack.
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Interesting thread... I wonder if "Balance through Imbalance" still has a place in MUGEN.
Where a character is supposed to completely destroy specific types of other characters, rather than one character having a type of defense or offense to everything.
That's the "balance" I've always looked for in MUGEN... like adding a puzzle piece to a puzzle that has no reference picture or idea of how many ways it can come together.
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Interesting thread... I wonder if "Balance through Imbalance" still has a place in MUGEN.
Where a character is supposed to completely destroy specific types of other characters, rather than one character having a type of defense or offense to everything.
That's the "balance" I've always looked for in MUGEN... like adding a puzzle piece to a puzzle that has no reference picture or idea of how many ways it can come together.
That's a very good explanation. I wouldn't have thought to put it that way, but hell yes, I agree.
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Look at it like this: If you love your work then don't let others' criticism bring you down, its not bad that you like doing updates of old stuff that's actually what keeps some of our beloved games going.
And hey if you ever need some help with editing sprites or something don't be afraid to seek help, that's why people call it the MUGEN Community so we can help each other enjoy what we love, I'm not saying I have the best sprite editing skills but im good enough to make designs on Chars and stuff like that, so you can come to me if you need some help with that
Maybe I can help you do videos or something like that.
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...I'm confused, this is a thread about opinions on balanced rosters, yes?
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...I'm confused, this is a thread about opinions on balanced rosters, yes?
Well.. just balanced "characters" for Mugen.
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Balanced characters and how people (don't) play with them.