This idea has been thought about and designed to make it more possible to work on completing a full characters in a timely manner.
It is also focused on making sprite work a more realistic and paying job. The goal is to complete quality full character packs in a month or less.
Currently the majority of sprite artists are charging $5 for a single sprite. Which is far less than what they should be earning for the time spent on one sprite. This idea isn't to lower or change prices for sprites but to find a way to make it more realistic to earn a reasonable amount for the time spent working.The Idea*This is based around the Gray Scale method (http://2dwillneverdie.com/tutorial/the-making-of-el-zombo/) of sprite making but with a good bit of changes. The assembly line would have 4 artist working on it, their roles are listed below*
**These roles of course could be divided among more people
but the amount earned and the hours to complete the role would also be divided.Spoiler: SF3 process (click to show)
*The reasoning for a different process is explained here: http://mugenguild.com/forum/msg.2153289
Role 1-The first artist world sketch out all the animations, finalize outlines and solid fill the sprites blue. Below is the actual size that I prefer to work at, this is 1000% increased from a normal sprite size. I sketch with 1px in colors and finalize my lines with 3px in black.
(https://i.imgur.com/SwcKqPo.png)(https://i.imgur.com/QE7swKV.png)
- Role 2-The second artist would add the lighting to the character, resize and index the sprites. More or less colors can be added in this role to make the job easier for Role 4 later in the line. Below you can see were the sprite size has been reduced to 10% using "bilinear" and color indexed.
Spoiler: SF3 indexing tool (click to show)
Color indexing can be a pain! I have made this tool to speed up the process, it works for single sprites or full animations. To use this tool you will need both items in this link Color choice and photoshop indexing tool (https://www.dropbox.com/sh/cti798703u9egtw/AAAAlviMUWvlIbF8cLYzxDtUa?dl=0).
*It is important to use only the colors used in the "index tool.png", the "SFIII Auto Index Tool.atn" only works with these colors.
*How to install atn file in photoshop (https://creativemarket.com/blog/2013/08/28/how-to-install-use-photoshop-actions)
*to view the effects of this tool simply go to file and "Save for Web & Devices...".
(https://i.imgur.com/stk1h6n.png)(https://i.imgur.com/uU371rX.png)
- Role 3-The third artist would color separate the sprites and re-index. As seen below this was achieved by making new layers with 40% opacity on top of each frame and using lasso tool to carefully select the desired area to color.
(https://i.imgur.com/YCM7vKM.png)(https://i.imgur.com/CrzATjd.png)
- Role 4-The forth artist would clean and detail the sprites to a finished polished product.
(https://i.imgur.com/8b1dx7j.png)
Compare Role 1-3 to official.
(https://i.imgur.com/qfjFHVu.png)(https://i.imgur.com/LrCShwN.png)
Money
The average full character commission is $1000.
That (divided 4 ways) would be $250 for each artist.
That's about 34 hours (Based on U.S. minimum wage 7.25) for each artist to complete their roles in the project. (4 1/4 work days)
Work file ExtrasThis link has all the work files used for my SF3-Moriggan. I hope you'll find them useful. https://www.dropbox.com/sh/zp955o5t5g6ww8f/AAB6IZxxgSZc6-KzGSQNG2nsa?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/sh/zp955o5t5g6ww8f/AAB6IZxxgSZc6-KzGSQNG2nsa?dl=0)
- Inktrebuchet's-sf3-morrigan-work-file.psd has role 1 and 2. you'll have to make layers visible/not visible to see the full process.
- Inktrebuchet's-sf3-morrigan-color-seperation-work-file-psd has role 3.
- Inktrebuchet's-sf3-morrigan.gif is role 4 but still has some things I would like touch up in the future.
I would really like to hear some feedback on this idea. ways to improve it and so on.
Wow, that sounds perfect. I conceived an idea like this with Shao-san for a character we're working on for Marvel Super Heroes: Rebirth (which I have to go back to working on now, I'm soo lazy >_<).
Was the average full character commission $1000? I thought it was 350 or $500 (unless I am missing something here, in which case a small explanation and a wall of text detailing myself being apologetic).
I do like the idea of the 4 way split, though. Easy mulla, everybody. Removing this line of idiocy to ask a better question: Would color separation be considered for this, and if the team would be made of 4 people, would the role be divided amongst them all? Or would you either get somebody to do it or cancel the idea of CSing altogether?
Will this be oriented towards certain styles, such as CPS3 (of which you are the emperor :P) or will other styles such as CvS, CPS2, KoF XIII, Yatagarasu, and DBFC be considered to be under the wing?
Either way, like what walt once talked about on you're art thread, it sounds like a great idea.
EDIT: Another question popped up, could this idea be taken to the outskirts of MUGEN, and be applied to possibly the area of indie game development? Since the basis of this idea is the Grayscale Method, and we saw that it can be applied to sprites of different genres (Like this for example) (http://2dwillneverdie.com/tutorial/fix-my-sprite-volume-3/), I think it would be worth a shot, with the only thing changing being the price of the comission (I think? Forgive me if I don't make any sense, it's not my strongest suite unfortunately.)
Quote from: Black Hatter on August 15, 2015, 11:22:28 PM
Was the average full character commission $1000? I thought it was 350 or $500 (unless I am missing something here, in which case a small explanation and a wall of text detailing myself being apologetic).
The $1000 full character is for ones that are remade and animated in full. Not conversions of existing sprite sets.
Quote from: Black Hatter on August 15, 2015, 11:22:28 PM
I do like the idea of the 4 way split, though. Easy mulla, everybody. Removing this line of idiocy to ask a better question: Would color separation be considered for this, and if the team would be made of 4 people, would the role be divided amongst them all? Or would you either get somebody to do it or cancel the idea of CSing altogether?
The color separating is done in the roll of the third artist. I think once I add photos you will see why its necessary.
Quote from: Black Hatter on August 15, 2015, 11:22:28 PM
Will this be oriented towards certain styles, such as CPS3 (of which you are the emperor :P) or will other styles such as CvS, CPS2, KoF XIII, Yatagarasu, and DBFC be considered to be under the wing?
This method would work well for any style but it was planned with cps3 in mind.
Quote from: Black Hatter on August 15, 2015, 11:22:28 PM
Another question popped up, could this idea be taken to the outskirts of MUGEN, and be applied to possibly the area of indie game development? Since the basis of this idea is the Grayscale Method, and we saw that it can be applied to sprites of different genres (Like this for example) (http://2dwillneverdie.com/tutorial/fix-my-sprite-volume-3/), I think it would be worth a shot, with the only thing changing being the price of the comission (I think? Forgive me if I don't make any sense, it's not my strongest suite unfortunately.)
Of course! It would be silly to only cater to MUGEN.
Quote from: ink on August 15, 2015, 11:31:19 PM
The $1000 full character is for ones that are remade and animated in full. Not conversions of existing sprite sets.
This method would work well for any style but it was planned with cps3 in mind.
Oh OK. Now I see!
If this idea picks up some steam, you might have me on board it (not sure though, need to survey future university semesters. >_<)
Also, tagging [user id=126]walt[/user]. Share with us your wisdom, o MUGEN Guild elder! ^_^
I hate being that guy, but it's Roles* not rolls in this instance.
I think this is a nice idea but I don't know how many will be on board with it.
Best of luck nonetheless. :)
How embarrassing! Thanks man, updated.
Hopefully people will be on board, its $250 for each role which seems reasonable. I plan on trying to do the animations myself (role 1).
This is more or less just trying to build a plan to make something like this work. The hope is teams will form from this being discussed and thoroughly figured out.
I'll throw my hat in the ring and provide color separation duties, even though I'm slow as shit these days. Hell, if it's a character I'm interested in I'll do it for free.
Quote from: davismaximus on August 15, 2015, 11:56:05 PM
I'll throw my hat in the ring and provide color separation duties, even though I'm slow as shit these days. Hell, if it's a character I'm interested in I'll do it for free.
I thought this would be the hardest role to fill!
Davismaximus is this the same or similar method to how you already color separate??
I'll go for the fourth role if this picks up steam (and after making sure of what'll happen to me in my future semesters). I'm not the greatest at detailing like you, Diepod, MotorRoach or Alex, but I can do a pretty good job (although not from scratch, some animations on my CvS XIII Kyo required me to pay attention to details, or the results would have been a terrible mess).
1000 for a full SFIII character sprite set! thats a steal compared to what the skullgirls dev team explained about character spriting.
hope to see more spriters joining to do this.
one question though would a conversion cost the same? like for example if i want to have SSF4 Cody converted to CPS3 style.
Quote from: ink on August 16, 2015, 12:00:06 AM
is this the same or similar method to how you already color separate??
Basically (http://mugenguild.com/forum/msg.1573100), I just use the outline tool and paint bucket instead of directly painting over certain areas. Would be
pretty fun a pain in the ass, but an interesting challenge.
I'm not a spriter, so I have no idea how reasonable/difficult each role is compared to the other (it may depend on the sprite style too, as KOF style sounds different in terms of applicable workflow).
Anyway, this sounds like a nice idea, and I hope it succeeds, so we can see some good spriters team up and get some awesome work done together ! Good luck ! :)
I tried to divide the roles as evenly a possible. I don't have as much experience with KoF style but I really think this method would fit any style well, with some slight changes.
Well, that sounds really interesting. How new, I'm needing some cash. LOL
Anyway, if you need one more person to make the color separation, I'm in. :kugoi:
I've been interested in this ever since you proposed the idea, Ink.
Thanks guys.
A couple other artists and myself are going to test this idea out. Kind of a trial run to see how it works and/or if anything needs changed before any big projects are taken on. I will be sure to post updates.
Any ideas or suggestions are welcomed!
Nice! Can't wait to see more of this! Good luck with everything. ^_^
I got the impression that you are still lacking people for roles 2 and 4, am I correct?
I am also interested in developing methods to create sprites more efficiently.
If you have any ideas for developing methods to create sprites more efficiently, please mention them here.
This thread is open to any idea that could help efficiency in sprite making.
Quote from: ink on August 24, 2015, 11:13:22 PM
If you have any ideas for developing methods to create sprites more efficiently, please mention them here.
This thread is open to any idea that could help efficiency in sprite making.
OK, off the top of my head, Kiwi's Grayscale Index Method is essentially a painting-to-pixels method. There is also the Rumble Fish Method, which is basically 3D-to-pixels method.
In addition, the usage of Spriter for games with graphics in the vain of Vanillaware, Rayman: Legends, DuckTales Remastered, and Tembo The Badass Elephant could be a third, but that's all I can think of.
Based on the route you plan to go for, the first 2 seem feasible, but number 2 would require a fifth slot, so I guess that could be scratched, unless someone could double as one, but that's probably not gonna happen.
CPS3 style could be implemented in that Vanillaware thing I was talking about, but it would probably end up looking like what steamboy33 did (but with a high leve of skill).
i don't think there's shortcuts you can take with the CPS3 style. it's kinda why it's the best looking and most well animated style, because it's mostly done by hand.
Role 2 may be suited for me.
The process would fit KOF sprites too, and I can't think why it wouldn't fit any other style actually.
Quote from: ink on August 24, 2015, 11:13:22 PM
If you have any ideas for developing methods to create sprites more efficiently, please mention them here.
This thread is open to any idea that could help efficiency in sprite making.
the roles can also be split horizontally in a key frame - transition frame manner; so you can get the most experienced spriters doing the keyframes while you need the noobiest ones doing the transition ones; or most likely due to man power, assignate more time ot the keyframes than it is assigned to transition frames.
I have been trinyg to learn animation using blender, I have seen some end results of that program and I think it offers the most decent learning curve/results ratio. the program arksys used for ggxrd is good, but the learning curve is so high you have to pretty much make a game taht takes full advantage of taht, for static sprites the blender method seems to be the best (I suspect a similar method is being used by examu bread, especially because of volumetric shading and jagged edges ) but only for characters, not so much for other resources as getting the models ready might be too time consuming and using sketches should be more efficient (like drawing a person cheering in the background).
Quote from: Black Hatter on August 24, 2015, 11:25:23 PM
OK, off the top of my head, Kiwi's Grayscale Index Method is essentially a painting-to-pixels method. There is also the Rumble Fish Method, which is basically 3D-to-pixels method.
In addition, the usage of Spriter for games with graphics in the vain of Vanillaware, Rayman: Legends, DuckTales Remastered, and Tembo The Badass Elephant could be a third, but that's all I can think of.
Based on the route you plan to go for, the first 2 seem feasible, but number 2 would require a fifth slot, so I guess that could be scratched, unless someone could double as one, but that's probably not gonna happen.
CPS3 style could be implemented in that Vanillaware thing I was talking about, but it would probably end up looking like what steamboy33 did (but with a high leve of skill).
Thanks Hatter. I will keep these in mind and try to see if anything can be applied. I know 3D models were used to help in the making of Hauzer, but in the end they were really just tracing over it, I'm sure it was a big help though mainly due to his size.
Quote from: AerosMugen on August 25, 2015, 12:02:09 AM
Role 2 may be suited for me.
The process would fit KOF sprites too, and I can't think why it wouldn't fit any other style actually.
I am so excited to hear this man! You may have just filled the last role. I will contact you as soon as we can all move forward on a project.
Quote from: Bastard Mami on August 25, 2015, 12:30:48 AM
Quote from: ink on August 24, 2015, 11:13:22 PM
If you have any ideas for developing methods to create sprites more efficiently, please mention them here.
This thread is open to any idea that could help efficiency in sprite making.
the roles can also be split horizontally in a key frame - transition frame manner; so you can get the most experienced spriters doing the keyframes while you need the noobiest ones doing the transition ones; or most likely due to man power, assignate more time ot the keyframes than it is assigned to transition frames.
This is a really great idea! This thread is geared towards commissions and helping artist join together so that would split the money up even more.
In all honesty, I would love to set up these roles in a more "open to the community" way. If anyone could do any role and us all work for free, That would be amazing. I am just not sure how to do that. There is no good way to organize that currently anywhere on the forum...
Quote from: ink on August 25, 2015, 04:16:04 PM
Quote from: Black Hatter on August 24, 2015, 11:25:23 PM
OK, off the top of my head, Kiwi's Grayscale Index Method is essentially a painting-to-pixels method. There is also the Rumble Fish Method, which is basically 3D-to-pixels method.
In addition, the usage of Spriter for games with graphics in the vain of Vanillaware, Rayman: Legends, DuckTales Remastered, and Tembo The Badass Elephant could be a third, but that's all I can think of.
Based on the route you plan to go for, the first 2 seem feasible, but number 2 would require a fifth slot, so I guess that could be scratched, unless someone could double as one, but that's probably not gonna happen.
CPS3 style could be implemented in that Vanillaware thing I was talking about, but it would probably end up looking like what steamboy33 did (but with a high leve of skill).
Thanks Hatter. I will keep these in mind and try to see if anything can be applied. I know 3D models were used to help in the making of Hauzer, but in the end they were really just tracing over it, I'm sure it was a big help though mainly due to his size.
Huh. That's a new fact, but in the end it makes a lot of sense, I mean Hauzer looks way too realistic compared to the other CPS3 chars in that game (I think Blade/Jihad also fits that title).
If I ever find the time to join a paid project in this vein, I would love to fill Role 3 or Role 4. Sadly I don't but just in case I do for the future, you have a worker in me! :P :P Until then I'll keep practicing CPS3's two different styles!^_^
Quote from: ink on August 25, 2015, 04:16:04 PM
In all honesty, I would love to set up these roles in a more "open to the community" way. If anyone could do any role and us all work for free, That would be amazing. I am just not sure how to do that. There is no good way to organize that currently anywhere on the forum...
Does that mean you'll make another topic for this?
I might help out but I don't know which role I could have.
I worked a good chunk of yesterday on figuring out a problem I was running into while reviewing Role 2's Gray Scale Method (when making SF3 sprites). This Color Method corrected those problems. A big break through for me. This will save a ton of time for the person working in Role 4. takes same amount of as the normal Role 2
Short explanation: Applies to Role 2
In SF3 sprites the light areas do not share colors with the shadow areas. To best explain it, light has its own color palette and shadow has its own color palette. Pictures below explain this further.
(http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff271/inktrebuchet/role%2021_zpsxiflcdjj.png)(http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff271/inktrebuchet/role%2022_zpsucyuvnve.png)(http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff271/inktrebuchet/role%202pal_zpsanrgd5ak.png)(http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff271/inktrebuchet/role2pal-applied_zpsa8iwyiuy.gif)(http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff271/inktrebuchet/role2new-pal-applied_zpslivabljc.png)
Applied to actual sprites:
(http://rs236.pbsrc.com/albums/ff271/inktrebuchet/locked%20folder/expindexcolor-solution_zpsvl2rtqfb.gif?w=480&h=480&fit=clip)(http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff271/inktrebuchet/locked%20folder/expindexcolor-solution-2_zps3e8etbfi.gif)
Simple Gray Scale Method still works great for everything else.
Holy shit, you actually managed to make the SF3 color ball like in IE's SF3 Easy pal deviation through the Index Method. Good work, man! :o
It's not perfect but it is close. More colors could easily be apply but for demonstration purposes these will do.
using different colour for shaded and lighten area, I wonder how that fits in whatI am doing, but it's an interesting idea.
Quote from: Bastard Mami on August 25, 2015, 12:30:48 AM
I have been trinyg to learn animation using blender, I have seen some end results of that program and I think it offers the most decent learning curve/results ratio. the program arksys used for ggxrd is good, but the learning curve is so high you have to pretty much make a game taht takes full advantage of taht, for static sprites the blender method seems to be the best (I suspect a similar method is being used by examu bread, especially because of volumetric shading and jagged edges ) but only for characters, not so much for other resources as getting the models ready might be too time consuming and using sketches should be more efficient (like drawing a person cheering in the background).
I have never used Blender, I only just now have learned about it. It would no doubt be a powerful tool and I am sure very helpful. I have seen other tools that can convert 3D models to 2d sprites as well. I would love to see someone put together an assembly line like this, maybe using blender to replace Role 1 and 2. I would think Role 3 and 4 would still need to be applied.
edit:
or not!
http://mugenguild.com/forum/topics/turn-3d-models-pixel-art-164991.0.html
For something like this I would think you would just need roles for secondary animations such as clothing and hair. I would imagine you could apply different colors for shaded and lighten area to make it work for SF3 sprites too.
yep, using that tool the latest is perfectly doable, since you make a palette.
you still need teh gray scale methods for objects that don't merit doing 3d models, in the case fo fighting games: backgrounds, effects, strikers.
Quote from: ink on August 25, 2015, 05:42:22 PM
http://mugenguild.com/forum/topics/turn-3d-models-pixel-art-164991.0.html
For something like this I would think you would just need roles for secondary animations such as clothing and hair. I would imagine you could apply different colors for shaded and lighten area to make it work for SF3 sprites too.
I've tried working that program before, but no matter what I do, it would never open. Another alternative would be 3DS Max and Helios' tutorial but that's all I can think of.
If somebody knows how to make it open at least, step forth and share your knowledge
It's very possible to use separate textures in the light and dark parameters of a cel shading material and have those display on a model.
Updated the first post with more info and images.
Just read the 1st post, looks great man. I'm going to test the SF3 method out today. Thanks for putting his idea out, loved the idea from the 1st time you mentioned it! ^_^
this is an interesting idea, I like the 1st and last role, but I'm not that good at making animations or drawing motions, but once I learn more about it I would be glad to try this out, and if it turns good, then you will see me here later
Updated the first post with some tools I made for the SF3 Process, Role 2, if anyone's trying this method out.
Updated the first post again! Just the SF3 Process has been updated.
I've been getting a lot of people asking me how I make animations and other questions around that so this should help out. There are now tools for Role 2 and directions on how to use them, along with information on every step to help out anyone who is trying this.
Let me know if anythings to vague or if you have any questions no mentioned in the steps.
this looks awesome! do you have anyone up for the 4th role? im pretty good at detailing and cleaning
Awesome!1 I was looking for something like this and now you did it :D!!
PS: Just a small thing; in the cvs process, why not indexing before resizing? This way you can obtain a desired amount of colours(in grey tones) for a future CS without so many small colour gradations.
In my experience downscaling with nearest neighbour gives you terrible results with an indexed image.
I have tried indexing before resizing, it just doesn't give the desired result. I haven't made the tool to automatically index the sprites yet, but once I do it will reduce the messy gradations by one click of the mouse. *indexing the long way is time consuming and can be frustrating.
I plan to revamp, the CvS process soon. The images I have up now are not a good representation of how it should look, they were just what I had sitting around. The SF3 process is the only one up to date.
I also plan on doing a KoF process in the future!
and others if they are requested.
Quote from: walruslui on September 09, 2015, 10:10:36 AM
this looks awesome! do you have anyone up for the 4th role? im pretty good at detailing and cleaning
Thanks man, I will keep you in mind! Currently everything is on hold due to low free time on my end. Hopefully others will be forming a team effort from the thread too.
For a KoF process, maybe you can take a look at Marancv's CvS to KoF tutorial and integrate some pointers from that tutorial into your process.
You are doing the entire Guild a huge favor, and I salute you for that. Hope I can participate in this one day.
*salutes inktrebuchet
Quote from: ink on September 09, 2015, 02:52:25 PM
I have tried indexing before resizing, it just doesn't give the desired result. I haven't made the tool to automatically index the sprites yet, but once I do it will reduce the messy gradations by one click of the mouse. *indexing the long way is time consuming and can be frustrating.
I plan to revamp, the CvS process soon. The images I have up now are not a good representation of how it should look, they were just what I had sitting around. The SF3 process is the only one up to date.
I also plan on doing a KoF process in the future!
and others if they are requested.
Quote from: walruslui on September 09, 2015, 10:10:36 AM
this looks awesome! do you have anyone up for the 4th role? im pretty good at detailing and cleaning
Thanks man, I will keep you in mind! Currently everything is on hold due to low free time on my end. Hopefully others will be forming a team effort from the thread too.
awesome, if this does come to fruition i won't even need to be paid! well i dont have a paypal so thats pretty much why, but i would do this shit for free anyways so you guys can keep all the grubby money to yourselves :P
I updated the first post with my SF3 Morrigan work files. They should help to further explain the process I've been using.
Quote from: ink on August 15, 2015, 10:49:52 PM
Work file Extras
This link has all the work files used for my SF3-Moriggan. I hope you'll find them useful. https://www.dropbox.com/sh/zp955o5t5g6ww8f/AAB6IZxxgSZc6-KzGSQNG2nsa?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/sh/zp955o5t5g6ww8f/AAB6IZxxgSZc6-KzGSQNG2nsa?dl=0)
- Inktrebuchet's-sf3-morrigan-work-file.psd has role 1 and 2. you'll have to make layers visible/not visible to see the full process.
- Inktrebuchet's-sf3-morrigan-color-seperation-work-file-psd has role 3.
- Inktrebuchet's-sf3-morrigan.gif is role 4 but still has some things I would like touch up in the future.
(https://i.imgur.com/TL8xsr6.gif) (https://i.imgur.com/qxg3THY.gif) (https://i.imgur.com/4QZskHd.gif) (https://i.imgur.com/B8hMdsx.gif)(https://i.imgur.com/pgXisFE.gif) (https://i.imgur.com/276NJnv.gif)