The Mugen Fighters Guild
M.U.G.E.N Central => M.U.G.E.N Discussion => Topic started by: Bluekuma on October 01, 2019, 03:50:28 am
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I want to start a project of having the perfect competitive version of mugen as much as possible. I would like to get a community started and have feedback of the characters to use and how the game should be played. I would also like to know what stages should be fine or banned. the style of the game is most likely POTS but only have the best authors/editors ( INFINITE, DW, RagingRowen, etc). I'll be using the legacy sp with 30 characters and have the add004 patch with it ( TY Rowen). I'll try my best to make as much balance changes as possible.
(https://ih1.redbubble.net/image.373495810.0556/flat,800x800,070,f.u4.jpg)
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Honestly, if you're going to mostly feature a PotS style competition, I would stick to the authors who best emulates PotS' own style as well as PotS' own original works. I feel stuff from the likes Infinite and R@CE are way too lopsided for proper balance. Stuff like that are closer to the original PotS are the closest thing to a balanced PotS roster. Otherwise, at that point, you'd get a Brawl Meta Knight situation where brackets are over-dominated by Infinite Dormammu players just because of how overwhelmingly powerful Infinite's stuff are for PotS standards.
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Honestly, if you're going to mostly feature a PotS style competition, I would stick to the authors who best emulates PotS' own style as well as PotS' own original works. I feel stuff from the likes Infinite and R@CE are way too lopsided for proper balance. They're the closest thing to a balanced PotS roster. Otherwise, at that point, you'd get a Brawl Meta Knight situation where brackets are over-dominated by Infinite Dormammu players just because of how overwhelmingly powerful Infinite's stuff are for PotS standards.
Thank you for the feedback, so who would you like to have when it comes to authors and stages?
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I mean, if it were solely up to me, it'll mostly be characters I enjoy playing, but that wouldn't really appeal to what is popular around these parts and would definitely break the balance you're aiming for since a lot of them are anime fighters. As for what I would recommend in a PotS perspective, something like Jmorphman, KarmaCharmeleon, DeathScythe, Jesuszilla's Felicia, and of course PotS' own original CvS2-inspired works. They have the most consistent style among PotS stuff and they definitely were trying to aim for actual gameplay balance.
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If you want to stick to Pots-style chars, your best bet for a balance tour are only chars by Pots himself, Jmp, DeathScythe, Jesuszilla and KarmaCharizard. Their works are based on available source data and their coding skills are noteworthy. While I do aware there are many other Pots-copycats, their works or edits tend to be sloppy and none of their works truly stand out so it's better to stay away from them for your purpose.
For more input: http://mugenguild.com/forum/topics/an-explainer-pots-style-187886.0.html
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If you want to stick to Pots-style chars, your best bet for a balance tour are only chars by Pots himself, Jmp, DeathScythe, Jesuszilla and KarmaCharizard. Their works are based on available source data and their coding skills are noteworthy. While I do aware there are many other Pots-copycats, their works or edits tend to be sloppy and none of their works truly stand out so it's better to stay away from them for your purpose.
For more input: http://mugenguild.com/forum/topics/an-explainer-pots-style-187886.0.html
makes sense, thank you ( btw Love your characters, keep up the good work)
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All of infinites and races chars aren't overpowered, they can still get their ass kicked by normal pots chars
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All of infinites and races chars aren't overpowered, they can still get their ass kicked by normal pots chars
well I see we starting some heat with certain characters I'll make a poll whether to have INFINITE and R@CE characters in!
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So, would you consider MvC3 level zoning balanced in CvS2? Because that's basically what Infinite's Dormammu would be when lumped with standard PotS characters. Hell, Infinite decided to make Stalker Flare air unblockable for no reasons even though it wasn't even air unblockable in Mahvul of all things.
Edit: And for the record, I'm only using Dormammu as an example, but you can apply similar reasoning with other PotS copycats who don't exactly have internalized balance in mind.
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So, would you consider MvC3 level zoning balanced in CvS2? Because that's basically what Infinite's Dormammu would be when lumped with standard PotS characters. Hell, Infinite decided to make Stalker Flare air unblockable for no reasons even though it wasn't even air unblockable in Mahvul of all things.
Edit: And for the record, I'm only using Dormammu as an example, but you can apply similar reasoning with other PotS copycats who don't exactly have internalized balance in mind.
I didnt know that their was unblockables with INFINITIES characters lol. Let's see how the votes go!!
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There's enough Infinite/Race stuff out there you could just make a separate comp for those.
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There's enough Infinite/Race stuff out there you could just make a separate comp for those.
That's not a bad idea!
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I would add characters from the following authors to the rosters, but edited to have CC instead of Max Mode:
Divine Wolf, Cruz, Victorys,
Other authors to consider:
Froz, Chazzanova
the only specific characters I would exclude from the above authors are: Hiryu, Psylocke, Jill, Juggernaut, Wolvverine
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You could always tweak/nerf Infinte and R@CE's characters if you know how to code.
Falcon Rapper's PotS chars are similar in style to the above.
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You could always tweak/nerf Infinte and R@CE's characters if you know how to code.
Falcon Rapper's PotS chars are similar in style to the above.
The same can be said to every single characters, be it MvC, KoF or even cheapies so that just simply doesn't make senses.
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Infinite, Race, Falcon Rapper etc characters simply put are not built the same as traditional pots style characters. they aren't something you can just "tweak" and throw in and expect to have a cohesive "competitive" roster. Beyond frame data and velocities and all that shit, there is just basic design choices that would give them unfair advantages. Like the addition of mvc like chains, random moves like fireballs, and instant cancellable supers off every normal or special. Not to mention the cornucopia of bugs that they have. In fact throwing all these "traditional" characters together themselves won't be cohesive considering PoTS own works had drastic changes in quality later on.
If you wanted a "cohesive" roster what you would need to do is make a fullgame. That means building all these characters from scratch to have a competitively balanced and viable system. If you can't do that. Your best bet is to just use only one set of characters by one author.
Or you can wait a couple years for when Jmorphman's fullgame is finally a thing.
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Infinite, Race, Falcon Rapper etc characters simply put are not built the same as traditional pots style characters. they aren't something you can just "tweak" and throw in and expect to have a cohesive "competitive" roster. Beyond frame data and velocities and all that shit, there is just basic design choices that would give them unfair advantages. Like the addition of mvc like chains, random moves like fireballs, and instant cancellable supers off every normal or special. Not to mention the cornucopia of bugs that they have. In fact throwing all these "traditional" characters together themselves won't be cohesive considering PoTS own works had drastic changes in quality later on.
If you wanted a "cohesive" roster what you would need to do is make a fullgame. That means building all these characters from scratch to have a competitively balanced and viable system. If you can't do that. Your best bet is to just use only one set of characters by one author.
Or you can wait a couple years for when Jmorphman's fullgame is finally a thing.
I respect the idea of building characters from scratch, but that was not my intentions. My intentions are is to make a balanced mugen game with tons of balance adjustments to characters and good viability. I want to set a standard for competitive mugen and set off an example.
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Infinite, Race, Falcon Rapper etc characters simply put are not built the same as traditional pots style characters. they aren't something you can just "tweak" and throw in and expect to have a cohesive "competitive" roster. Beyond frame data and velocities and all that shit, there is just basic design choices that would give them unfair advantages. Like the addition of mvc like chains, random moves like fireballs, and instant cancellable supers off every normal or special. Not to mention the cornucopia of bugs that they have. In fact throwing all these "traditional" characters together themselves won't be cohesive considering PoTS own works had drastic changes in quality later on.
If you wanted a "cohesive" roster what you would need to do is make a fullgame. That means building all these characters from scratch to have a competitively balanced and viable system. If you can't do that. Your best bet is to just use only one set of characters by one author.
Or you can wait a couple years for when Jmorphman's fullgame is finally a thing.
Or, y'know, you can just use Jmorphman, KarmaChameleon, DeathScythe & Knuckles8864's stuff.
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Well, I am working in a fully balanced mugen.
With this mechanics:
6 buttons
Chain combo,
Launcher,
aerial combo
spot dodge
power charge
MVC imput style Hypers,
TAG SYSTEM:
assist,
character change
and delayed hyper combos,
I am using a vast selection of characters and recoding some stuff that needs to be recoded,
I will upload a Nero video one of this days and an update
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Well, I am working in a fully balanced mugen.
With this mechanics:
6 buttons
Chain combo,
Launcher,
aerial combo
spot dodge
power charge
MVC imput style Hypers,
TAG SYSTEM:
assist,
character change
and delayed hyper combos,
I am using a vast selection of characters and recoding some stuff that needs to be recoded,
I will upload a Nero video one of this days and an update
Seems interesting, but why do you have spot dodge in an mvc style game, its technically useless since u can whiff cancel moves. But other than that i hope your project goes well.
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Not really,
In MVC games and mugen chars in general,
can only chain attacks If movecontact=1 ,
in other words, if a character wiffs a hit,
they are bound to end the hit animation before enetring a nwe one, and usually hit animations have a non active time to recover to an iddle state,
so you can punish them during that time before they can do another hit
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Have you tried some of Mark85's edits? He nerfed/tweaked a few like Falcon's Mature and R@ce's Marco.
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More POTS? We have a lot already. POTS is already highly common and popular lol
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More POTS? We have a lot already. POTS is already highly common and popular lol
Yes but its due to it being the most consistant style. UNLESS if y'all want an anime fighter?
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Hey, this isn't really a project until you're showing something you made so I'm gonna move it out of here
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More POTS? We have a lot already. POTS is already highly common and popular lol
Yes but its due to it being the most consistant style. UNLESS if y'all want an anime fighter?
Personally, I would prefer that since PotS style isn't really my cup of tea (ironically, I play Sennou-Room's characters, but they'd be unbalanced in a PotS style tournament).
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Just made another poll if the game should be an anime fighter, I'm more interested in that than to figure out authors
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Been playing this with my friends for years at this point.
Everything has been balanced to the best of my ability and fun factor ofc, even all my stage bounds are equal to make sure no one has an advantage when starting a match.
Not to mention I have made over 300 ports for the screenpack.
A couple of chars were edited like Haohmaru,Ryu and I forgot who else. Changing the normals to be closer to CVS and more that I have forgot about.
Adding the explod buffer to Ryu was the start for me gonna do this for the rest of the cast.
Been fine tuning it for 2 years in my spare time when I can. also been providing a shitton of feedback to the char creators here on the forum and behind the scenes on PMs and discord.
(https://i.gyazo.com/6080c3cf6869e1596b53cb7d380e821f.png)
There are still chars that do not fit like Lei-lei somewhat but are fun to use and is made by POTS and I let her slide if I was to go all out though she wont make it.
Also a fair bit of chars I think can be re-coded or to at least give them CSLN overhaul.
I feel Jman/DW/Karma is a good base to start from and go from there.
Mugen is open, unless all the talented people here in the forum set a SET of rules on what chars should have or don't have it wont be 100% perfect. On the other hand people just like to make the chars THEY want to make and could not care about competitive mugen which is a fair point and no one is obliged to balance their stuff at all.
Don't forget this was made by fans in their spare time with lots of passion.
Again, if you use it as a template to start your own thing, I feel DW/Jman/Karma is a great place to start.
Heck the above mentioned can probably do this on their own if they had the spare time. They have proved that they have the knowledge and skill to pull it off.
The Z2 crew is a prime example of this, that I feel will also make a good base for anything in mugen.
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Infinite, Race, Falcon Rapper etc characters simply put are not built the same as traditional pots style characters. they aren't something you can just "tweak" and throw in and expect to have a cohesive "competitive" roster. Beyond frame data and velocities and all that shit, there is just basic design choices that would give them unfair advantages. Like the addition of mvc like chains, random moves like fireballs, and instant cancellable supers off every normal or special. Not to mention the cornucopia of bugs that they have. In fact throwing all these "traditional" characters together themselves won't be cohesive considering PoTS own works had drastic changes in quality later on.
If you wanted a "cohesive" roster what you would need to do is make a fullgame. That means building all these characters from scratch to have a competitively balanced and viable system. If you can't do that. Your best bet is to just use only one set of characters by one author.
Or you can wait a couple years for when Jmorphman's fullgame is finally a thing.
I respect the idea of building characters from scratch, but that was not my intentions. My intentions are is to make a balanced mugen game with tons of balance adjustments to characters and good viability. I want to set a standard for competitive mugen and set off an example.
a standard for something like this is hard to achieve without coming up with a uniform system and "rules" all characters must follow- as mentioned this becomes dicey when ulling from various sources because people code things different.
youve been all over the place, idk where anime comes in here, cause its a whole different ballgame when you consider anime encapsulates many diff styles.
i question the long term viability of competitive mugen simply because the engine itself is outdated and the biggest advancements have come in the form of entirely different engines (the ikemen forks) and unofficial plugins (mugenhook)
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Infinite, Race, Falcon Rapper etc characters simply put are not built the same as traditional pots style characters. they aren't something you can just "tweak" and throw in and expect to have a cohesive "competitive" roster. Beyond frame data and velocities and all that shit, there is just basic design choices that would give them unfair advantages. Like the addition of mvc like chains, random moves like fireballs, and instant cancellable supers off every normal or special. Not to mention the cornucopia of bugs that they have. In fact throwing all these "traditional" characters together themselves won't be cohesive considering PoTS own works had drastic changes in quality later on.
If you wanted a "cohesive" roster what you would need to do is make a fullgame. That means building all these characters from scratch to have a competitively balanced and viable system. If you can't do that. Your best bet is to just use only one set of characters by one author.
Or you can wait a couple years for when Jmorphman's fullgame is finally a thing.
I respect the idea of building characters from scratch, but that was not my intentions. My intentions are is to make a balanced mugen game with tons of balance adjustments to characters and good viability. I want to set a standard for competitive mugen and set off an example.
a standard for something like this is hard to achieve without coming up with a uniform system and "rules" all characters must follow- as mentioned this becomes dicey when ulling from various sources because people code things different.
youve been all over the place, idk where anime comes in here, cause its a whole different ballgame when you consider anime encapsulates many diff styles.
i question the long term viability of competitive mugen simply because the engine itself is outdated and the biggest advancements have come in the form of entirely different engines (the ikemen forks) and unofficial plugins (mugenhook)
it was people wanting to have an anime fighter, so that's why I made a poll about that. sorry for the inconsistency with the thread. So far most want POT'S anyways so I'll cut straight to the point. The Roster is going to be 30 characters, All have the same style (POT'S not SVK), generally going to use few authors I think spent tons of effort on their work. My biggest concern is stages tbh, idk what to use when it comes to a viable stage. Next thing is going to make my own colors, adjustments, and balance changes. I know it will be a challenge, but I will try my best and keep y'all updated.
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So far I picked all of deathsycthe characters,strider by dw, and Guile by Jmorphman. They will be my starting cast and be the lab rats.
EDIT
Iori from CharmaKhalmeleon is another character
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strider by divinewolf is probably a bad fit for that group
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strider by divinewolf is probably a bad fit for that group
I want to challenge myself with Strider tbh, He's one of my favorite characters of all time and I think I could pull it off. Plus I already made a few colors that look dope asf. If it doesn't work out, I'll replace Strider.
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Been playing this with my friends for years at this point.
Everything has been balanced to the best of my ability and fun factor ofc, even all my stage bounds are equal to make sure no one has an advantage when starting a match.
Not to mention I have made over 300 ports for the screenpack.
A couple of chars were edited like Haohmaru,Ryu and I forgot who else. Changing the normals to be closer to CVS and more that I have forgot about.
Adding the explod buffer to Ryu was the start for me gonna do this for the rest of the cast.
Been fine tuning it for 2 years in my spare time when I can. also been providing a shitton of feedback to the char creators here on the forum and behind the scenes on PMs and discord.
(https://i.gyazo.com/6080c3cf6869e1596b53cb7d380e821f.png)
There are still chars that do not fit like Lei-lei somewhat but are fun to use and is made by POTS and I let her slide if I was to go all out though she wont make it.
Also a fair bit of chars I think can be re-coded or to at least give them CSLN overhaul.
I feel Jman/DW/Karma is a good base to start from and go from there.
Mugen is open, unless all the talented people here in the forum set a SET of rules on what chars should have or don't have it wont be 100% perfect. On the other hand people just like to make the chars THEY want to make and could not care about competitive mugen which is a fair point and no one is obliged to balance their stuff at all.
Don't forget this was made by fans in their spare time with lots of passion.
Again, if you use it as a template to start your own thing, I feel DW/Jman/Karma is a great place to start.
Heck the above mentioned can probably do this on their own if they had the spare time. They have proved that they have the knowledge and skill to pull it off.
The Z2 crew is a prime example of this, that I feel will also make a good base for anything in mugen.
That's pretty dope, I respect the time you spent with your project!!
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Please try to not triple post
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So far I put in akuma, strider, and Ingrid with the portraits and the recolors. Ill try to post some images later on today!
Btw new poll for Iori by Karmachameleon
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So far I put in akuma, strider, and Ingrid with the portraits and the recolors. Ill try to post some images later on today!
Btw new poll for Iori by Karmachameleon
Okay. But as Umezono said, you should probably remove Strider by DW.
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Why not combine the moves from each mode in the CMD file? You gotta know what each variable does like the mode detection and you're good.
Adding the explod buffer to Ryu was the start for me gonna do this for the rest of the cast.
Still hyped for the Ryu update.
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Why not combine the moves from each mode in the CMD file? You gotta know what each variable does like the mode detection and you're good.
Adding the explod buffer to Ryu was the start for me gonna do this for the rest of the cast.
Still hyped for the Ryu update.
thats not a bad idea tbh, I have done that before with removing moves and variables.
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K
So far I put in akuma, strider, and Ingrid with the portraits and the recolors. Ill try to post some images later on today!
Btw new poll for Iori by Karmachameleon
Okay. But as Umezono said, you should probably remove Strider by DW.
I'm not going to give up on Strider, I have a few Ideas that might make him work!
EDIT Update on Strider
I have made some adjustments for strider yesterday that I think makes him way more balanced for this project! I removed ouroboros and leigon super and have adjusted his chain combo damage. More changes will be made soon!
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I'm not going to give up on Strider, I have a few Ideas that might make him work!
EDIT Update on Strider
I have made some adjustments for strider yesterday that I think makes him way more balanced for this project! I removed ouroboros and leigon super and have adjusted his chain combo damage. More changes will be made soon!
Maybe refer to SF5 zeku for balance changes to Hiryu? just an idea
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I'm not going to give up on Strider, I have a few Ideas that might make him work!
EDIT Update on Strider
I have made some adjustments for strider yesterday that I think makes him way more balanced for this project! I removed ouroboros and leigon super and have adjusted his chain combo damage. More changes will be made soon!
Maybe refer to SF5 zeku for balance changes to Hiryu? just an idea
Ill check out the frame data comparing sf5 zeku to strider when it comes to gram.
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Sorry for the lack of updates on the project, but I am making lvl 2 cancelling similar to CVS2 C-groove. The roster Have been fully selected.
CAPCOM
Ryu by RagingRowen
Sakura by Varo Hades
Akuma by RagingRowen
Dictator by Froz
Chun-li by Jmorphman
Cammy by RagingRowen
Zangief by RagingRowen
T.Hawk by RagingRowen
Guile by Jmorphman
Guy by Gui Santos
Karin by Gui Santos
Ingrid by Deathsycthe
Morrigan by Dw
Lei-Lei by Gui santos
Strider by DW
SNK
Kyo by Jmorphman
Iori by karmachamelon
Mai by RagingRowen
Kula by DW
Robert by RagingRowen
Rock by DW
Kim by Jmorphman
King by Jmorphman
Athena by DW
Terry by Raging Rowen
Vice by Jmorphman
Joe by Jmorphman
Geese by Gui Santos
Benimaru by Jmorphman
Nakoruru by Gui Santos
Any suggestions will be appreciated!!
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Maybe Ken and Demitri for Capcom and Ryo and Rugal for SNK?
You should maybe list which versions you're using aswell.
Also Vice twice?
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Maybe Kim and Demitri for Capcom and Ryo and Rugal for SNK?
You should maybe list which versions you're using aswell.
Kim for Capcom?
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I just fixed my post there now sorry.
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added the authors for all the characters
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added the authors for all the characters
I saw Yuri before the edit, now I don't see her anymore...
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added the authors for all the characters
I saw Yuri before the edit, now I don't see her anymore...
Imo she is another shoto, I changed to Terry due to his upcoming appearance in Smash Ultimate. Unless their is a good reason to change it back to Yuri.
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Hate to say it, but with this level of indecisiveness showing up repeatedly at this point, it does make one wonder why did you think wanting to set up a balanced competition was a good idea to begin with. With such uncertainty, I'm more convinced that this is aiming for viewership rather than trying to gather people together to test their skills and knowledge.
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Hate to say it, but with this level of indecisiveness showing up repeatedly at this point, it does make one wonder why did you think wanting to set up a balanced competition was a good idea to begin with. With such uncertainty, I'm more convinced that this is aiming for viewership rather than trying to gather people together to test their skills and knowledge.
this is my first project and I want the community to feel satisfied with my projects. I just do not want people saying, "this is stupid" or " why is this in the game". Sorry for being "indecisive." I'll release the first demo soon and see how y'all feel and we will move on from that point!
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removed poll and post, I decided to keep it in the game. From now on I'll not say anything until a character is fully ready to be playable!
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Pots style only roster?? with all these great characters out there what about warusaki Ahuron Ikaruga those pots characters are poorly put together in terms of competitiveness but We will see how it turns out
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Pots style only roster?? with all these great characters out there what about warusaki Ahuron Ikaruga those pots characters are poorly put together in terms of competitiveness but We will see how it turns out
whats your bar for competitiveness? cause if u dont explain that this post makes no sense
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KSo far I put in akuma, strider, and Ingrid with the portraits and the recolors. Ill try to post some images later on today!
Btw new poll for Iori by Karmachameleon
Okay. But as Umezono said, you should probably remove Strider by DW.
I'm not going to give up on Strider, I have a few Ideas that might make him work!
EDIT Update on Strider
I have made some adjustments for strider yesterday that I think makes him way more balanced for this project! I removed ouroboros and leigon super and have adjusted his chain combo damage. More changes will be made soon!
Ouroboros for DW's strider doesn't last as long as mvc strider plus its a 3 bar move, so you can keep it besides ouroboros is a big part of striders character since he is a glass canon.