Commands/systems you dislike, and proposed alternatives

[Loona]

Most people in this forum are fans of fighting games to some extent, and some work on their own takes on characters and games with Mugen, which provides the opportunity of doing some things differently.

That being said, what are some things about games you like that you feel could have been done differently, yet you never (or rarely) see done? How would you change them?


One example that comes to mind is multi-part special commands like Fei Long's triple QCF+punch.

As far as I'm aware, there's no possible variation on the move other that not continuing it once the 1st punch is out, so using the same command one or two more times seems like adding an unnecessary layer of execution to it (you've already stated an intent to use it with the 1st QCF+punch).

IMO, the move could simply be continued by not letting go of the punch button in question - let go of it (the game supports negative edge) by the time the animation of the 1st punch and it stops; keep holding it (or press and hold it before the initial punch is over, ins case you activated it with negative edge), and the move continues.
(partially inspired in things like some Soul Calibur specials, where keeping a button held after a move may have you go into a non-default stance from which you can use other moves).

That command structure makes a bit more sense when there are branching paths to it, like Kyo's flaming punch chains - then again, I'm not well versed enough in those to know if the differences between their possibilities are worth it beyond the initial pick of strong or weak punch, which have significantly different properties - but with a lack of variety it doesn't really seem to be worth it.

It almost makes sense in Geese's case for the Deadly Rave, since one of his gimmicks is being a hard opponent when controlled by a computer not bound by command execution or human reflexes, and hard to use by a human player at the level the computer can to achieve similar results, but applying that sort of thing to a super is even stranger IMO...

[Elix]

One example that comes to mind is multi-part special commands like Fei Long's triple QCF+punch.

As far as I'm aware, there's no possible variation on the move other that not continuing it once the 1st punch is out, so using the same command one or two more times seems like adding an unnecessary layer of execution to it (you've already stated an intent to use it with the 1st QCF+punch).

The first two hits are relatively safe if being blocked and the 3rd hit is very easy to punish because of the long recovery frames. The fact that you can either continue with the second and third attacks or stop anytime and do something else adds to Fei Long's mind games. But your point was that the execution was hard... rudundant? I don't think so. Maybe you need more practice? As Fei Long's three punches in that move, for example, are very similar it's only logical to make them execute the same way, i.e. QCF+P, QCF+P, QCF+P.

[S.D.]

Agreed. Also (At least in SF4) Feilong can Rekkaken (1 hit), short pause, cLP , link into a complete Rekkaken (3 hits)
The suggested easy/lazy mode shortcuts are highly impractical and get in the way of said links, the same goes for Geese & Rock's Deadly Rave. Stick to SoulCalibur or something.

[Loona]

One example that comes to mind is multi-part special commands like Fei Long's triple QCF+punch.

As far as I'm aware, there's no possible variation on the move other that not continuing it once the 1st punch is out, so using the same command one or two more times seems like adding an unnecessary layer of execution to it (you've already stated an intent to use it with the 1st QCF+punch).

The first two hits are relatively safe if being blocked and the 3rd hit is very easy to punish because of the long recovery frames. The fact that you can either continue with the second and third attacks or stop anytime and do something else adds to Fei Long's mind games. But your point was that the execution was hard... rudundant? I don't think so.

The point was once the initial command was executed, holding the button would let you control how long you want to continu with the move - want only 2 punches, hold it until the 2nd punch then let go; want to do something else after the 1st punch, then let go of the button right away, do whatever you want, repeat again if you want for the preferred extent of the move.

If the difference between the timing of the QCF+Ps is relevant for anything other that continuiing or interrupting the move, something like "direction + button" could be an alternative.
Leona's fwd+D extension to her D Grand Saber comes to mind - maybe not the best example since it's a single extension instead of part of a bigger multi-part move, but the principle seems to work there...

[Elix]

The point was once the initial command was executed, holding the button would let you control how long you want to continu with the move - want only 2 punches, hold it until the 2nd punch then let go; want to do something else after the 1st punch, then let go of the button right away, do whatever you want, repeat again if you want for the preferred extent of the move.

I don't think that it would be any easier. Holding a button and waiting for a moment to release takes no less brain activity than mechanically inputting the same command as the previous one. Try it yourself.

something like "direction + button" could be an alternative.

Now that would oversimplify Fei Long's controls. Rekkaken is his main damaging move. It must take some effort to be able to play a character. Game developers determine the price of a move in terms of its execution basing on that move's value. Zangief's piledriver is an awesome move, therefore you must be able to do 360° motion to execute it. HCB or HCF would have made Zangief cheap. I think I made my point.

[JustNoPoint]

I used to think command shortcuts wouldn't be so bad till SF4 

[Loona]

something like "direction + button" could be an alternative.

Now that would oversimplify Fei Long's controls. Rekkaken is his main damaging move.

The complete motion would become something like qcf+P, f+P, f+P wit my suggestion, which is not that different in difficulty from several other characters' main damaging moves.

At least I'm hoping you're not thinking I was suggesting skipping the QCF completely...

The initial part would involve the typical intentional command with all its usual execution, but after that it could be a matter of timing and providing the option to continue or not, not unlike Geese's Deadly Rave.


It's just a minor issue (finding the extra QCFs in the middle a bit superfluous) and a proposed alternative of mine.

Anyone else has others?

[TempesT]

Instant air fireballs.

Make them UF + PUNCH

[GT]

Instant air fireballs.

Make them UF + PUNCH

HA!

[MellyInChains]

Instant Kills.

Then again it's always funny when your friend ends up doing his, completely missing and then laughing followed by completely fucking him up in the next five seconds

[Cyanide]

The problem with making systems easier, means that certain things that are balanced out by being difficult suddenly become guarantees.

[Jesuszilla]

I used to think command shortcuts wouldn't be so bad till SF4 

SSF2TR

[S.D.]

Instant air fireballs.

Make them UF + PUNCH

Ahahaha.

[Loona]

Instant air fireballs.

Make them UF + PUNCH

If you haven't actually seen this anywhere you're completely missing the point.

[Elix]

And you're completely missing the joke. 

[Loona]

Not really, just trying to get the topic back on track.

The way I see it, one of the points of having a fighting game section in a Mugen forum is encouraging the understanding of existing games in order to refine ideas for (original) character and game creation.

Questioning what established games do and pondering on alternatives seems to me that it's something worth doing.


If some people want to intentionally miss the point as if I were advocating invencible full-screen normals for the lulz, so be it, but I'd rather not let that get on the way of others bringing up their points if they have any.

[K.O.D]

tekken does shitty simple direction + button commands

it sucks

[c001357]

so does sf, kof,

[K.O.D]

yeah no, tekken does that for nearly every move while sf/kof do it for command moves

[Loona]

tekken does shitty simple direction + button commands

it sucks

How would you change its command style if you could?
Or what games with similar type of movesets do you think got commands right?

Regarding 3D fighting games with a comparatively more down-to-earth style that your average 2D game, I find Virtua Fighter's use of only 1 kick and 1 punch button a bit too limiting, so compared to that, Tekken's use of a button-per-limb system seems a bit more reasonable and intuitive, but I never got that much into it.

Still, some people swear by VF's depth, which is intriguing - a little less so when reading about the involved mind games, but on the whole the series doesn't appeal to me much.