[September 2011] Playing to win vs. Playing to have fun

[TempesT]

In an attempt to create more substance for the fighting game board, to create a relate-able information source for the board and to incite discussion between members on popular fighting game topics, I present:

The first in a series of experimental monthly articles for the Mugen Fighters Guild.

Learn to be a better player, learn to have fun while still staying fresh and competitive.


1. Introduction

This thread (and hopefully many more threads to come), will discuss a certain topic or subject about fighting games. The subject will vary from month to month, but the main focus will remain on fighting games, it's players and the mindsets of these players. All points are up for discussion/debate/slander/lies/poop/etc, but keep everything tasteful. As I previously stated, this is experimental, if it goes well, I will do more. If it becomes parroting, I can't keep up with the monthly schedule or the reception overall isn't desirable, then the thread will disappear into obscurity.

When you look at a tournament, do you see a lot of players sacrificing the aspect of fun of a fighting game in order to win the prize money? When you look at a tournament, do you see a lot of people purposefully "crippling" themselves by not choosing the strongest character in the game? Well, those are the two extremes on this subject, and hopefully I (we) can correlate the two ideas as a single entity.



2. "I don't care about winning, I just wanna have fun"

I've heard this mantra many times (not just here), and the simple idea of not caring about winning in a competitive Versus game, is unfathomable. The problem with this statement is that most people are afraid to approach the statement as they really think it: "I don't want to seem like an asshole, so I just want to play the game."

Unfortunately, I recommend against playing fighting games, if this is your mindset. If you're worried that the simple notion of winning makes you out to be an asshole or any variation of the word, then competitive games may not be your true calling. Of course, I'm not going to force anyone or belittle anyone into thinking that they should STOP PLAYING VIDEO GAMES, if they just want to play it to kill time or for whatever ulterior motive you have for playing video games.

The reasoning behind this statement is silly. The goal of a fighting game is to win the fight. You are literally playing to win, however...



3. "I only want to win and I will sacrifice variety and substance to achieve this"

The polar opposite of my previous entry. This player, when paired with the previous player, will ruin the game. In fact, this player, when paired with anything but this player will ruin the game to an extent. Fighting games were made with the intention that one person would defeat the other person, however, this player will use any means necessary to achieve this.

When you enter a tournament, this type of behavior is expected; a staple to the scene. However, many players go about it differently. At a tournament, you enter the tournament with the intention to win, and if the intention is not to win, you are there to attain some level of experience against players from different regions/communities/areas and get a deeper feeling from the game than you do sitting at home on a couch.

Playing to win is important, however, playing to win is scrutinized by beginners because it hinders their ability and growth as a player. Player 3 is "ruining the experience" for the casual players. However "unfair" player 3 may or may not be, he is playing the game the way it's supposed to be played.



4. 2+3 = Win and still have fun. "Playing to win isn't fun to me, you can't convince me otherwise

How can I possibly play to win, but still have fun? I don't like the mentality of having fun must mean winning.

Of course, not everyone is going to share the sentiment of "Winning = fun", but think of this: If I play a first person shooter, do I walk around in the open and hope to kill everyone without getting killed? You're under fire, get behind cover, throw a grenade, do something smart to avoid getting killed. That's how those games are supposed to be played.

To harp on a point, the point of fighting games is to win against your opponent. The difference that this genre has, is that there are two real people against each other; at it's core, the game is you vs someone.

If beating a level in an FPS or any type of game is fun to you, winning a fight in a fighter will be fun to you too.



5. Losing can = fun too!? NO WAY

I don't want to place too much emphasis on the winning = fun point, because there is always going to be a loser. And from most of this article so far, I have been emphasizing that winning = fun, but does that mean the loser misses out on fun too? Definitely not. A losing fight could have went a number of ways:

1) you get absolutely demolished, your opponent is clearly out of your league and just used your match footage for his upcoming combo video. Not much fun, unless you are a masochist

2) you put up a good fight, but you are eventually figured out, you lose both rounds. Not much more fun, but there's an opportunity for you to get better, to change what you were doing, in an attempt to surprise your opponent. Daigo-level sandbagging can be fun.

3) the fight was intense, both you and your opponent are very evenly matched, you lose the match 2-1, and as the set continues, you lose every fight, the same way every time. This is a much more fun way to lose, not only because you have found someone who is very close to your skill level (especially hard if you're an online warrior), but because you are improving with every fight and the hope for the next fight is still there because you are so evenly matched.

Losing too much can be frustrating and sometimes losing too much can cause you to drop the game entirely (for the day, or for good). Dropping a game entirely requires a very specific type of player though, but that'll be for a different article.

Losing must always be seen as opportunity, opportunity to improve, and opportunity to increase the potential fun you have for the game and the genre.



6. Conclusion

Playing to win Vs. Playing to have fun.

The two concepts aren't very different. One side shouldn't condescend to the other, in an attempt to achieve some level of faux-understanding, because both sides can be the same thing if you approach it the correct way. Always remember that winning should be an important goal when playing a fighter, it doesn't have to be the only goal, depending on what type of player you are, but don't steep to a level of stoic masochism because you don't care enough. They make WiiWare games for players like that.


(Every point, word, and sentence is up for discussion and debate, so feel free to post your thoughts)

[Cazaki]

Winning is funner than losing, to be frank. It's not like you buy competitive games to lose, so I generally don't believe anyone who says that they don't care about winning/losing.

[Keku]

the simple idea of not caring about winning in a competitive Versus game, is unfathomable.

Your ideology is unfathomable.

[TempesT]

Please explain. If I was too biased, I am up for correcting that.

[Dreams In Stardust]

I'm in the category of 'win/lose, as long as I have fun' ideal.

Any game I play; fighting, FPS, bullet hell, whatever the kind of game it is, I play for the fun of it. I go online, go against people, and generally have a good time, most of the time. Hell, I even make some friends from it.

And I don't really see why most people would make such a huge deal about winning a game just to increase their rank in some leaderboard. You're just basically going out of your way, using any tactic necessary, (for instance, using Wesker/Akuma/Wolverine, exploiting their horrifying traits) and sucking the fun out of the fight, just to get the "1st Super Awesome Cosmic Brownie" rank that you're probably not keeping for long since some guy with the same ideal just did what you did, but did it better/worse than you did.

[MellyInChains]

I'm in the category of 'win/lose, as long as I have fun' ideal.

mmmyes, quite.

doing anything else to me just sounds exasperating

[Pal]

Maybe my opinion doesn't matter since I've never played any fighting game competitively, as in I don't even learn how to combo moves.

But to me the fun lies in having a match where you can lose at any moment, inputting a hard command in a split second and dominating the player or get absolutely destroyed in a matter of seconds. Sure, winning adds to the fun value but I also laugh like a maniac when I lose horribly.

[Duos.act]

Fighting games are competitive by nature.  Therefore, obviously I'm playing to win.  Winning and fun are not mutually exclusive concepts, I can play to win and still have fun.  Competition in itself is fun.  It's not a complicated concept.

[Keku]

Please explain. If I was too biased, I am up for correcting that.

While I was not being serious, your opinion did seem rather offensive; it hit hard. Not pognant, but it is rather one-sided when you judge the majority of those who have claimed the sentence "I don't care about winning, I just want to have fun" synonymous to "I don't want to seem like an asshole, so I just want to play the game" over fear that winning makes you an asshole.

I, along with many other players, don't care about winning. The sheer thrill of actually playing or even witnessing a game drives many people to believe such a seemingly daring idea. Were this exclusively the competitive scene you were talking about, such a thought is quite common and true, while not necessarily the case everytime. When not showing your potential just to make people you feel are beneath or above you happy, you just show how much you're trying to stand out - for better or for worse.

It depends on what kind of community you're in, what kind of player you are, what kind of games you play, and countless other factors that will just give you judgment of what you think about a fighting game and its system, if not fighting games in general.

That point alone seemed shoved directly at a general audience and looks like it assumes anyone who feels as such should be seen as the bottom of the barrel. Opinions are fine, but there is a fine line between what you're aiming to get at and who you're aiming at that you need to notice.

Playing to win may be the goal, but it's not all it takes for one to have fun. Many things such as experimentation and just figuring out how you lost a match are enough to make a game that much enjoyable. You can play to win and have fun, but you can also play to play and have fun just the same despite its competitive nature.

[TempesT]

I covered your point and my stance about losing under "5."

[Duos.act]

I'd also like to add to my post that losing is not as bad as some make it out to be.  Losing still gives you experience, you look at the stuff that hit you, the reasons you lost.  You learn the matchup, you play again a better player.

Honestly, all of Ryu's poet romanticism in his winquotes and dialogue is very very true to fighting games themselves. 

EDIT: Furthermore Temp I think this is a very good idea, I like the concept of engaging fighting game discussion here a lot.  It also helps to show we can play real fighting games instead of just downloading stuff for Mugen. 

[Cazaki]

I'd also like to add to my post that losing is not as bad as some make it out to be.  Losing still gives you experience, you look at the stuff that hit you, the reasons you lost.  You learn the matchup, you play again a better player.

But the fact remains that if you study these things, you're playing to win, you lost as a stepping stone to a later victory. However, some people just reject progression. The people that I do not enjoy being around the most are those that refuse to improve. I love to win, but against great opponents, and those that "play to have fun" mostly consists of this group of people. I'm not saying people can't just play because they love the game and the scenes around fighting games, like so many people do, but those that want me to play down to them because they refuse to practice piss me off. Not trying to come off as hostile, but I think those kinds of people shouldn't buy fighters.

[Duos.act]

Yeah, I know.  When I go into a match obviously I am trying to win, but losing teaches you just as much under most circumstances.

On your second note, I fucking hate the obnoxious scrub mentality that anyone who plays high tiers or competitively is a cheater mcpoopy pants and ruining the game, or worse yet that tiers dont exist and all characters are created equal.  I fucking hate the "tiers are for queers" phrase for so many reasons....

[Pal]

Not trying to come off as hostile, but I think those kinds of people shouldn't buy fighters.

Well, excuse me for liking the intensity and fast-paced action of a fighting game.

Of course, I don't expect to play against expert players let alone beat them.

I fucking hate the "tiers are for queers" phrase for so many reasons....

That phrase only applies to Smash Bros to me, because banning 90% of the functions just because you want a larger e-penis is bullshit.

[Keku]

lol banning in smash bros
lol smash bros

[Duos.act]

lol smash bros

This is just as ignorant.  Smash Bros's status as a fighting game is extremely dubious, but that doesn't mean it can't be played competitively.  Going by that logic, we should "lol pokemon" and "lol mario kart" and "lol starcraft" because they aren't fighting games either.

[Pal]

Smash Bros's status as a fighting game is extremely dubious, but that doesn't mean it can't be played competitively.

Of course it can, just like many games. But in a game where random explosives makes up 50% of the fun it's pretty damned stupid to go around banning them just so you can play "competitively". Of course, I've never considered Smash Bros a fighting game and I don't want to go ANYWHERE near the competitive scene of it.

That and I hate how they suck on Melee's dick and complain about Brawl's slowness when 64 had the same pace.

[Cazaki]

Not trying to come off as hostile, but I think those kinds of people shouldn't buy fighters.

Well, excuse me for liking the intensity and fast-paced action of a fighting game.

Of course, I don't expect to play against expert players let alone beat them.

I'm not saying people can't just play because they love the game and the scenes around fighting games, like so many people do, but those that want me to play down to them because they refuse to practice piss me off.

[TempesT]

Another thing to think about:

Experiencing the game/not caring = fan
Competitively playing/Semi-competitive = player

A sports comparison can be made, the thing that separates fans from players is skill and the skill to get better and want to get better. It's not nearly as black and white as that though, because there are very specific player archetypes out there.

[rednavi -RETIRED]

I can't wait to see something posted here soon or late to be quoted by Scrubquotes.

I would like to have a deeper thought to apport but right now I don't have any friends who play any fighting game at the level I do so I just play for fun, even if it means losing because I tried something extremelly impractical or just chose a character I never use.

Of course if I ever find somebody to play with I'll go for the win, that's the whole point of the game, the challenge.