Roberto - Rival Schools/Project Justice ALPHA

[Odb718]

This is just showing off what I've started.
I've got a lot of animations ripped and sorted in FF3 that arent in the video. Right now, what you'll see in the video is Roberto sitting on top of my Samus' code. All of the code will be original. I just wanted to get a preview of what he'll look like in game. So for now consider this a teaser.

Now it's time for some sleep.

[Memo]

Looks good,  you got some clean sprite rips there.
Looking foward to this I like roberto, its a shame
Capcom never included chars besides batsu in its
Cross over games.

[Odb718]

Thanks Memo.
I was just thinking that I'm probably not going to stick to Project Justice gameplay. All of the stuff from the source will be there. But I'm going to take some liberties.
Roberto will get new basics and specials. I'm not sure about ultras yet.

One of the new specials will be an additional projectile. I'll use the HP overhead attack to throw in a soccerball. I may have different speeds and trajectories based off of button presses. I'll also make the LK/HK into 3 buttons and divide the trajectories to get the average. I'll probably match those values with the toss in specials.

[ELECTR0]

But I'm going to take some liberties. 

Go for it and let's see what you come up with.

[Odb718]

well I was messing with the animation of the move I dont like. The Soccerball overhead standing HP attack.
I needed the ball out of the picture because there's no room in the palette and I wanted it to be it's own thing.

After trying a couple things I think I have the best solution for the single move. BUT it can lead to even greater things.



With N.'s codes, I can hide specific parts of any character's body. On top of that, I can switch characters to use their movesets like Ive mentioned.

Basically, I can do anything. It'd just take some time.

[djlolo]

well I was messing with the animation of the move I dont like. The Soccerball overhead standing HP attack.
I needed the ball out of the picture because there's no room in the palette and I wanted it to be it's own thing.

After trying a couple things I think I have the best solution for the single move. BUT it can lead to even greater things.



With N.'s codes, I can hide specific parts of any character's body. On top of that, I can switch characters to use their movesets like Ive mentioned.

Basically, I can do anything. It'd just take some time.

very good works whe do you make to ram hibiki

[DJ_HANNIBALROYCE]

damn...i agree with memo....these sprites rips are nice. ill be watching this one.

[Odb718]

I'm doing a tiny bit of work on Roberto. The hit boxes take up the most amount of time.
SO! If anyone wants to help out, I'll upload Roberto and we can work on the hitboxes together to try to get through this.

I've finished 86 of 145 animations. On average, I'd say each animation has 20-25 frames. I'd say each animation takes around 20mins to cover with hit boxes. Doing 3 an hour sucks.

Anyone interested in helping out???

[PotS]

If it's taking you that long to make the hitboxes, you may be going at it the wrong way. Look how simple proper boxes can be: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHg8PZBtVj0

Everything is based around the basic standing, crouching and jumping boxes.

[Odb718]

No offense, I really like your stuff PotS, but My hit boxes are a sore spot around here.
Plus There's a HUGE difference between a Ryu and a Roberto sprite. I know zooming out can have them sized similarly, but my point is,

Spoiler (click to show)

I personally find it unacceptable that if P2 jumps over, and P1 whiffs that punch, the back foot can't be hit. This is mugen, not SFIV or V or VI or any other Capcom/company game. Mugen is way better and we shouldn't use their standards. The only 2 things that shouldn't be able to be attacked is Hair, and in VERY few cases, lose clothing. BUT I would like a 3rd type of hit box for hair/clothes that it could be Grabbed. I wont go into detail on how or why I make my hitboxes the way I do, but a small synopsis would be: When P1 attacks, The motion of the attacking limb should be fully explored and illustrated in the available sprites. P2 should have the opportunity to counter the attack, but has to hit the exact frame of motion; Not what would be represented during the invisible frames. Meaning, the Blue boxes should be tight on the body, but Red can have a "blur" effect.
Heh, I just looked at the boxes as text. Shin Gouki's 210 is 27 lines, Roberto's is 540. That's literally 20x.

Akuma has 7 frames for his 210, Roberto has 50 unique* frames for 210. And I didn't even choose these sprites on purpose. I'd recently dl'd your update, slid to an animation, and then compared to Roberto. But it's just over 7x the amount of work minimum. What you get done in a day would take a week on Roberto. I also usually use 4 to 6 boxes a sprite, not 2.
I haven't been JUST working on Roberto over the last 7 years lol. I think I've release 18 characters and a few stages?

I'm glad to see you're active on the forum again. It was a pleasant surprise to see you commented.

Btw, I DO use the standing hitboxes a lot. Usually the last 5 or 6 frames of an animation is Roberto returning to neutral so they're usually close enough to get away with using the 0's boxes.

[Umezono]

not being able to hit the back foot of that gouki sprite is such a strange edge case. maybe 99% of basics would still hit him cause the hit box of most attacks extend outward. covering every part of the character with boxes really just seems unneeded. you could achieve the same effect by just accounting for those extended hitboxes and modifiying your hurtboxes to be wider.

[AlexSin]

Not to mention hitting the back foot, if it happened, would result in Gouki having a get hit animation that looks like he gets heavily hit (in the face or in the guts).


1- your hitboxes
2- simplified but following the body
oh no, the asscheeks can't get hit!! What will we do about it? Also all that air in front of the shins, that can't be hit!!
3- more simplified
you're exaggerating now! And why is that hand not hittable, so that the character uses the get hit in the face/gut animation? The ass is invincible too! (to be honest I could have expanded the CLSN more to the right)
4- perfect world
everything from tip to toe is hittable, each finger too for realism.

My point is that you're stressing over details that no one should care about.
And if we were to actually look at each details, for every attack there should be an appropriate get hit animation (attacking the left hand → left hand hurts animation, attacking the right hand → right hand hurts animation, back foot hit → back foot get hit animation, attacking the shins → shin hurting animation, attacking the knees → knees hurting animation etc. ) so many that at this point you should just simplify them.

[PotS]

By the way I was talking about doing 3 animations an hour, not implying you took 7 years to do them. Though I guess that would've been funnier.

[Odb718]

not being able to hit the back foot of that gouki sprite is such a strange edge case. 

You really don't notice how bad capcom boxes are until you switch to something better. Once you do, you'll see the edge cases ALL the time.

@AlexSin 4 would be the same sprite but black and white used as an alpha channel.
3 gets close to an example I'll make from the video PotS posted
2 Isn't terrible but if you look at
1 you can't tell that the leg box is more than just the leg box.

Spoiler (click to show)

These have multiple boxes that stretch, usually, to another side of the character. 28, the middle sprite, you can see his wrist is actually his butt, or part of it. His bicep helps round out his back. Things like that.
The reason why I do it like this, if if you look

Spoiler (click to show)

You can see that I TRY to make as much as you CANT hit, you can hit AIR. I try to make things even for both P1 and P2.

Those edge cases; Why you guys feel like this

Spoiler: 3 Example (click to show)

is acceptable, idk. In my version, both Ryus miss. I don't see why it should be any different. If you were to measure that gap irl, it's probably 10 inches away.
Why should anyone be allowed to kick air and hurt the other person?? Like not a special move but a basic attack? Simplicity? Uniformity?? So you want a basic game where the players are just skins of 1 character???  It makes it fair? THAT^^^ is fair to the person throwing the punch?

Spoiler (click to show)

This is how I probably would have these boxes for both sprites. WAY different.


But does anyone want to help with Roberto in any capacity???

[AlexSin]

At this point use AutoCLSN, you will make the character quicker.

The SFV Ryu picture you posted could be simplified like this:


imagine when someone jumps at you with all his body, I don't think just the knee will hurt you ("hey, you're on the ground so listen, just the knee hurts, even if you get the other foot in your face it doesn't actually hurt" ... that doesn't sound realistic)
so the flying Ryu CLSNs are ok.

The one on the floor could be changed in my opinion (even though they might have used the idle CLSNs). You could even use 3 blue CLSNs, one for the head, one for the body and one for the legs.
So you're actually right in saying that case is weird, but making all the CLSNs "skin-tight" isn't the proper solution (in my opinion).
But I think the real reason they were made that way is because the move should be more punishable. Still weird to have the air be hittable, but a trillion CLSNs are even weirder.

Aside from CLSN feedback, what help do you need? I know you're making the .sff, the .air and the coding, you probably know how to get sounds too. So what do you really need?

[PotS]

If we're discussing SF5's boxes, I think it's worth mentioning that that game is played at the highest of high levels and I haven't really seen people complaining about hitboxes as a whole. Simple as they may be, to me they represent 30 years of accumulated experience in making fighting games.

But to be fair to Odb718, I suppose Capcom's old 3D games like Rival Schools used the models themselves as "hitboxes", so the hit detection would be more or less like he's doing.

[Umezono]

Yeah, that's how I'm feeling too- the design of Capcom's boxes (at least currently) reflect the game design behind games that have been played to the highest level for years and have held up to such scrutiny. What is your point of reference for better box design than Capcom's? SNK also does hitboxes this way, as well as Arcsys.

Also, the point of being able to punish people where "air" should be is an integral part of fighting game design. The fairness argument would onbly make sense if you weren't considering the other properties of the move being punished. If you are pressing a high risk, high reward normal, reducing the margin of error pushes the equation heavier towards the "reward." Such boxes are done for the sake of balance. Realism doesn't automatically transfer to fairer or better gameplay when you consider the entire context of a fighting game. Oftentimes functionality is what translates to better balance in a closed, full game environment.

There is nothing wrong with what you're doing cause you're designing these characters without the same intent as major fighting game developers. You're designing them for use in an open source environment with no "rules." That's fine to me. But it doesn't make them inherently better or worse than Capcom boxes, nor does what you're doing (trying to cover every bit of the character with boxes) actually have to be done to make them functional.

[Odb718]

"At this point use AutoCLSN," I don't think I've ever seen that option. Please let me know how to do this.

"Aside from CLSN feedback, what help do you need?" I was actually hoping someone would help make clsn boxes for me. For specials and helpers n whatever.  Just anything/everything honestly. Roberto is playable, but mainly because I just did attack boxes for all the moves. There aren't any sounds or FX in the char yet. I'll upload him when I get home from work tonight. (in like 8h)
If anyone wants to gut it and make "standard" hitboxes for him, I've got no problem with that. If you want to do 50/50 and see which ones work better, that's cool too.
But I feel timing and other feedback is what I'm looking for too. He's very.. slide-y?

Spoiler:  CLSN Box arguements (click to show)

The SFV Ryu picture you posted could be simplified like this:

Except that's sacrilege. Capcom's hit boxes are a culmination of bla bla bla. No one would find the SFV hitboxes GOOD if they weren't made by Capcom. They make no sense outside of a full game bla bla bla. 

"What is your point of reference for better box design than Capcom's?" Mugen. and my eyes and experience playing Mugen.
Also, I'm not on a timeline or a budget trying to get my character(s) to market. Like PotS said, I'm taking waaaaaaayyyyy too long. Imagine if it took 20x longer for SFV to come out. What would happen? Capcom boxes are almost the bare minimum.

Do you guys REALLY think after 7y of wasted time making 1 Project Justice char, there's going to be a full game?
Should I mimic SFV's hitboxes in hopes that other people will make enough SFV chars that Roberto will have a fair fight?
Or should Roberto have a fair chance against Shin Gouki and Evil Ken and Dragon Claw??? Do you honestly think any SFV char will be able to take down Popeye?
What game do you guys play? It always comes back to "Capcom did it and they know so that's the best" conversation. Yet with the visualization of my hitbox right next to capcom's you can SEE how obvious of a problem it is and still side with capcom. 

"If you are pressing a high risk, high reward normal, reducing the margin of error pushes the equation heavier towards the "reward." Such boxes are done for the sake of balance. " I don't use air as a way to balance, I try to use start up time, attack movement/boxes, and open time.

Btw, idk if you guys recognize the person in the bottom left of this image

Spoiler (click to show)

But he's kinda known for playing Street Fighter, and this happened during one of his matches. And Honestly, I picked a random video, watched for 2:40s, and was like PAUSE! lemme see that in slow mo one more time...
PLEASE defend that grab attempt whiff. The entire forearm to finger tip is in P2's body. This is Capcom. And without watching that video, the excuse you make for it not connecting, will be wrong.

----
I've uploaded the current state of Roberto here
https://www.sendspace.com/file/rvd956
If you guys just want to make palettes or anything, All help is welcome.

[AlexSin]

I would try it and maybe make some palettes, but it's on Sendspace
and I don't trust that site, the last time I checked it I got virus warnings from my antivirus.

[Odb718]

See if this sets off any alarms.
https://file.io/Ok8z1EZlZKKE