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White Supremacists Protest in Virginia (Read 20032 times)

Started by Amy, August 13, 2017, 12:32:51 AM
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Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
#121  August 16, 2017, 06:35:40 AM
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i love the centrist hot takes about the rally, about how calling the white nationalists "nazis" turned them into nazis. hopefully no one calls them pedos or else they'll all be going around diddling kids

also snakebyte is the fucking best. he's like the ian miles cheong of this forum, just a fount of endless entertainment
Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
#122  August 16, 2017, 06:45:47 AM
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Everyone has rights. Taking rights away from people is wrong. Doesn't matter who it is. Doesn't matter if they're real mean. No matter how many times you try to lie about my intentions, your lies aren't going to serve the purpose you want. My original post was commentary about the entire situation. Which I framed negatively. All of it. Not 'spinning facts'. The only agenda I am pushing is that: The world is fucked. Lying is bad. Violating people's rights is wrong.
the freedom of the white supremacists caused violence to erupt in the streets, and caused the death of an innocent woman.
their freedom literately means rioting and violence, they were never peaceful in the first place.
I'm going to let god handle you people ✞
Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
#123  August 16, 2017, 06:59:34 AM
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the freedom of the white supremacists caused violence to erupt in the streets, and caused the death of an innocent woman.
their freedom literately means rioting and violence, they were never peaceful in the first place.
Someone who they don't agree is not to blame for antifa maiming people and destroying property in the streets since years ago, let alone getting hit by a car they started to attack while trying to shut down free speech once again.
Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
#124  August 16, 2017, 07:33:07 AM
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Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
#125  August 16, 2017, 08:39:41 AM
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Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
#126  August 16, 2017, 09:14:04 AM
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i love the centrist hot takes about the rally, about how calling the white nationalists "nazis" turned them into nazis. hopefully no one calls them pedos or else they'll all be going around diddling kids
Are you just disregarding the tons of pictures of them doing Nazi salutes, wearing KKK hoods, waving Nazi flags and everything ?

And Endorfan, look at the video. See the speed at which the car is going forward (before that first hit you see), then notice how the front bumper is ruined when it backs away. He came into the crowd at full speed, smashed into the car that was in front of him in the middle of the protesters, and then he went back full speed. When he hit the car in front, it smashed the car in front and a second car in front of that (a big one).
Whether he hit the brake shortly at some point or not, if you want to argue that he did that only because someone hit his car, be ready to hear that someone hit his car because he was speeding right at the crowd. Don't cherry pick the single images that fit your version.
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Last Edit: August 16, 2017, 10:11:41 AM by Byakko
Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
#127  August 16, 2017, 09:34:03 AM
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cmon snake, u know u wrong bruh.
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Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
#128  August 16, 2017, 01:20:47 PM
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the freedom of the white supremacists caused violence to erupt in the streets, and caused the death of an innocent woman.
their freedom literately means rioting and violence, they were never peaceful in the first place.
Someone who they don't agree is not to blame for antifa maiming people and destroying property in the streets since years ago, let alone getting hit by a car they started to attack while trying to shut down free speech once again.
Are you dumb?
That is the shittiest exuce for murder that I've ever seen. Even if what you say is true it is still the shittiest.
You don't run over people with your car no matter how much they damage it.

I'm going to let god handle you people ✞
Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
#129  August 16, 2017, 01:34:05 PM
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Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
#130  August 16, 2017, 02:08:15 PM
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Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
#131  August 16, 2017, 02:40:36 PM
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Its general knowledge that a human being,regardless of their political views,should still,in full,have all human rights.
Not liking someone elses political views is fair ground for shitposting,debate and insult throwing and the like,but saying they don't deserve human rights because of it is silly
Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
#132  August 16, 2017, 02:53:09 PM
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Its general knowledge that a human being,regardless of their political views,should still,in full,have all human rights.
Not liking someone elses political views is fair ground for shitposting,debate and insult throwing and the like,but saying they don't deserve human rights because of it is silly

so the kkk that wants to kill all black people should have human rights....hmmmm. maybe the jails should free all murderers then. smh. i dont think kkk is seen as a political view. 
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Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
#133  August 16, 2017, 03:21:41 PM
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Yeah, saying everyone should have human rights shouldn't stop them from facing justice when they commit crimes.
And again, hate speech should be considered a crime everywhere. Hate speech and white supremacy aren't just "political views". It's up there not far from crimes against humanity, as in crime against other people's human rights. IDGAF if you don't like it because free speech.
If I struggled to the end of my determination, to the end of my way of life with my followers, if the result is ruin, then this ruin is inevitable. Grieve. Shed tears. But you cannot regret.
Last Edit: August 16, 2017, 03:25:02 PM by Byakko
Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
#134  August 16, 2017, 03:36:19 PM
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Everyone should have rights until they commit a crime. Thoughts are not a crime. 'Hate speech' isn't a term with a firm definition, and is a slippery slope to censoring a lot of speech that shouldn't be censored (see the guy in the UK about to go to prison because he taught his pug a Nazi salute to piss off his girlfriend). I'm not opposed to really, really rigidly defined hate speech laws, but they'd have to be really, really rigidly defined, to prevent the kind of slippery-slope horseshit we're seeing all across the internet.

Byakko, I want to be clear about something here. I actually agree with you about hate speech laws. I just don't believe you can act on a law that doesn't exist. I'm for changing the laws in the US to restrict hate speech if it's done right, but you have to grant people the rights they have until that change exists. To do otherwise will lead to really bad outcomes, because it will normalize vigilante actions to take away people's rights.
Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
#135  August 16, 2017, 03:54:08 PM
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Laws change with each country, it doesn't mean you can't get upset with it. india's rape culture has a very hard time getting rapists prosecuted, some Middle East countries give no right to specific kinds of people (such as women), there are countries that don't recognize human rights period, and so on. Those acts are perfectly legal in these countries (I don't remember which country allows a rapist to just marry his victim as a punishment), but it doesn't make them less wrong on the level of humanity. Saying "well it's legal in that country, whatcha gonna do" is still revolting, and the rest of the world should completely have a right to be upset against it and call for justice and human rights. Not that they should go to war of course, but they should completely pressure the country into changing its laws by various means.

When a country like the US or France or wherever determine that a specific country is violating human rights, it does become a conflict as the international community decides that human rights should absolutely trump the local laws. (This is regardless of what actually happened in countries like the Middle East and Central America because the country that acted up ended in corruption)
Economic sanctions for example are the preferred method currently (it doesn't work much).

And yes, I am absoutely comparing US's laxism against hate speech to the stuff from the Middle East, Russia etc. That have led to economic sanctions.
If I struggled to the end of my determination, to the end of my way of life with my followers, if the result is ruin, then this ruin is inevitable. Grieve. Shed tears. But you cannot regret.
Last Edit: August 16, 2017, 04:11:20 PM by Byakko
Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
#136  August 16, 2017, 04:15:13 PM
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Its general knowledge that a human being,regardless of their political views,should still,in full,have all human rights.
Not liking someone elses political views is fair ground for shitposting,debate and insult throwing and the like,but saying they don't deserve human rights because of it is silly
so the kkk that wants to kill all black people should have human rights....hmmmm. maybe the jails should free all murderers then. smh.
What
Do you even understand what rights are?
All prisoners still have human rights you silly nilly.The murderers,thieves and even the people on the death row,still keep their rights
If they didnt,the country would be allowed to use them for slavery, to torture them , to not give them a fair trial and who knows what else
Prisoners themselves,for the time of being imprisoned,lose certain rights,like rights to privacy and to own property/items in your cell,but thats more than understandable , considering its done for the safety measures of the prison staff
Everyone should have rights until they commit a crime.
Again,thats not how it works
Like I said,rights to privacy and such are lost cause you're in jail , but losing all rights due to imprisonment is inhumane
Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
#137  August 16, 2017, 04:23:38 PM
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Laws change with each country, it doesn't mean you can't get upset with it. india's rape culture has a very hard time getting rapists prosecuted, some Middle East countries give no right to specific kinds of people (such as women), there are countries that don't recognize human rights period, and so on. Those acts are perfectly legal in these countries (I don't remember which country allows a rapist to just marry his victim as a punishment), but it doesn't make them less wrong on the level of humanity. Saying "well it's legal in that country, whatcha gonna do" is still revolting, and the rest of the world should completely have a right to be upset against it and call for justice and human rights. Not that they should go to war of course, but they should completely pressure the country into changing its laws by various means.

When a country like the US or France or wherever determine that a specific country is violating human rights, it does become a conflict as the international community decides that human rights should absolutely trump the local laws. (This is regardless of what actually happened in countries like the Middle East and Central America because the country that acted up ended in corruption)
Economic sanctions for example are the preferred method currently (it doesn't work much).

And yes, I am absoutely comparing US's laxism against hate speech to the stuff from the Middle East, Russia etc. That have led to economic sanctions.

No, I totally agree with you. It is honestly shocking how much I agree with everything you're saying here. I'm just going to stick with my stance that being 'upset with it' should take the form of protesting against the laws and trying to rally for changing the laws, not taking the law into your own hands and trying to take away the rights of people you don't think should have them. Only the law should be able to take away rights. When you do it on your own, you open the door to anyone doing it on their own, to anyone.

We want the same end goal. I think we just disagree on methods. And I want to stress that my concern here isn't for Nazis, it's for other people that could have their rights get taken away if public opinion swings against them. Public opinion is right on Nazis but I don't trust it. I've experienced mob 'justice' personally. I've personally witnessed religiously-motivated hate crimes when I lived in a small town. This is the sort of thing you enable if you start taking people's rights away on your own.

We agree that the laws are wrong. What I'm stressing is the importance of obeying the law even while it's wrong, while simultaneously trying to change the law.

@Erroratu: You're right, I oversimplified, what I meant was you shouldn't lose any rights until you commit a crime.
Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
#138  August 16, 2017, 04:41:14 PM
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I'm just going to stick with my stance that being 'upset with it' should take the form of protesting against the laws and trying to rally for changing the laws, not taking the law into your own hands and trying to take away the rights of people you don't think should have them.
Maybe you should give examples of where this happened here. There was a protest against the protest, few people caused some damage as always in any protest, and someone on the Internet is associating pictures of people walking in the open in a protest with their names which isn't taking away any right, just letting the employers decide if that employee is way too toxic and don't want to associate themselves with them.
What rights have been taken away exactly ? Have protesters been arrested ? Has anyone in this thread actually seriously called for these people to be thrown in jail ?
If you mean taking away the right to protest, if we're talking about finally making a law to stop hate speech... This is self-contradicting, do you want laws to be made against hate speech or do you say they should keep theior right to protest and give hate speech ?

I sympathize with your personal experience, but we're not talking about mob justice. We're talking about laws and how hate speech should be made illegal. And before that,this thread was talking about a protest, a counter protest, the white supremacists beating up Black people, and a car driving over the counter protesters. If anything, the mob justice came from the white supremacists too.
And yes, mob justice and hate crimes should be, and ARE, punished by law.

In other news, Baltimore quietly took down 4 Confederate statues during the night.
If I struggled to the end of my determination, to the end of my way of life with my followers, if the result is ruin, then this ruin is inevitable. Grieve. Shed tears. But you cannot regret.
Last Edit: August 16, 2017, 04:50:49 PM by Byakko
Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
#139  August 16, 2017, 04:48:13 PM
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About hate speech, I really do question the necessity and effectiveness of such laws.

England has hate speech laws. That didn't stop some asshole from jumping in a car and running over innocent Muslims.
Canada has hate speech laws. That didn't stop someone from running in and shooting up a mosque. Canada's response btw: more hate speech laws.
Even with all the hate speech laws in the EU, it'd be silly to think that every single country in that bloc has seen a decrease in hate related crime.
These are laws specifically made to combat racism and xenophobia, I may add.

Hate speech laws sound nice, but do they really solve problems? And it only takes a few of them to then progress into Germany forcing social media to remove their subjective definition of hate speech or face 6-figure fines. Which will inevitably involve the use of "100% accurate" algorithms at some point. And people being fined or jailed for nonsensical reasons, not that's it's a daily epidemic but it happens every now and then.

Normal, reasonable people (vast majority of the population) don't engage in hate speech, and Charlottesville is far from a daily occurrence. The neo-nazis gathered from hundreds of miles away as a defensive measure; to protest the removal of a statue. It's not like they were some 50's Klan group who got together to go hunting.

Healthy skepticism of someone from barbarian England, in the very state it happened too.
Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
#140  August 16, 2017, 04:51:38 PM
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The police tried to disperse the event, taking away their right to protest. Many private internet companies have taken action censoring alt right websites, some of which were justified and some weren't. What I originally posted here about and what got you coming at me was commenting that they're going to sue the state of Virginia for taking away their right to protest which was upheld on appeal in the federal courts. That was mob justice on the state's part, the police acting outside the law.

I also believe that the counter-protestors were there with the intention of causing violence and shutting down the event by force, not just counter-chanting and making their own different opinions heard.

I'm taking a less charitable interpretation of some of these things and you probably won't agree, but hopefully you can understand where I'm coming from at least. In this and a lot of other protests, the Berkeley ones against Milo for example, there are stories and stories of the police standing by, only taking action against one side, letting the side perceived as hateful (not saying Nazis aren't hateful, perception can be right and was right this time) get attacked without intervening, and generally failing to uphold the law. That's a huge issue. They have rights until we decide, through the process of enacting new laws and criminalizing new behaviour, to take those rights away.

@Niitris: I'm Canadian. We don't have these kinds of protests up here. We don't have the Westboro Baptist Church being assholes up here. I'm not comfortable with the idea of people shouting hostile shit against other races on the street. I've also seen lots and lots and lots of unjust censorship under hate speech laws that overreach. So I'm for them, but they have to be constructed really carefully so they don't get abused. I think that's possible. Unlikely, maybe. Maybe so unlikely that the risk of implementing them isn't worth it. But possible.