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Rules of HP/Defense that MUGEN creators tend to forget (Read 3500 times)

Started by extravagant, November 16, 2020, 12:24:48 AM
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Rules of HP/Defense that MUGEN creators tend to forget
#1  November 16, 2020, 12:24:48 AM
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Too many times I have been seeing assigning the same "equal defense/life" values for all their characters, specifically within the POTS realm. With the exception of Karma, Jmorphman, and POTS himself, there's a few people out there doing POTS-styled characters who are not following the basic HP/defense guidelines when it comes to the math.

What I mean is that I keep seeing people created Shin Akuma chars but giving them life 1000 and defense 100. What I mean is I see varo_hades' Sakura edit has life 1000, defense 100. When POTS', warusaki3, and every other SF game, she has lower HP like around life=944 or life=945.

Or worse yet, betterhans who made good ghost akuma, literally gave this POTS Shin Gouki edit life 1000, and the guy can freely regenerate a full stock of HP when you kill him the first time. So essentially, his life is 2000 because he lives twice. POTS original Shin Gouki's life is 889. For the sake of balance, it seems like some people think "being equal" on everything is being equal, when it's actually making it unequal.

In CvS2 (or pretty much, ALL SF games), most female characters have weaker HP than the male cast. Sakura, Cammy, Morrigan (especially), Maki, Mai, etc, with maybe a few exceptions have normal HP values that match the male chars, but it's a very small minority of female chars that have similar HP values to the male chars.

I see many people making Orochi Iori, Evil Ryu, regular Akuma as well, but not knowing that their HP values are supposed to be even weaker than the female chars. I believe in Capcom's realm, they designed it this way because the evil hadou or whatever powers makes the chars stronger/faster/more combos, but in exchange, it costs them their life/defense. Below is a video demonstrating.

Big fat characters like Ehonda, Blanka, Sagat, T-Hawk, Zangief, Hugo, are known to have more than life=1000.






(2nd image is my example of my Goeniko, she's a strong character with boss-like attributes, but her HP is even less than most other female chars. Less than Chun-Li, less than Sakura)
Last Edit: November 16, 2020, 12:36:12 AM by extravagant
Re: Rules of HP/Defense that MUGEN creators tend to forget
#2  November 16, 2020, 12:36:43 AM
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 I've seen this problem in a lot with most custom characters in general, too, funny enough. I suspect that it's due to ignorance of FG balance (relatively speaking since every system works on different balance logic) as the author just simply wants their favorite character in MUGEN above all else or, more simply, sheer laziness.

 Also, correction, PotS' Shin Akuma has 850 life.
Re: Rules of HP/Defense that MUGEN creators tend to forget
#3  November 16, 2020, 12:42:50 AM
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It's not all SF games. Brittle bruisers like Yun or Ibuki are stand outs in 3s and 3s has variable health, painfully apparent in the case of Akuma, but SF2 and iirc 4 or at least 5 had set in stone values. I don't usually like variable health as a design trait except to give grapplers more chances or to counteract absurd offensive traits.
Re: Rules of HP/Defense that MUGEN creators tend to forget
#4  November 16, 2020, 12:46:11 AM
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It's not all SF games. Brittle bruisers like Yun or Ibuki are stand outs in 3s and 3s has variable health, painfully apparent in the case of Akuma, but SF2 and iirc 4 or at least 5 had set in stone values. I don't usually like variable health as a design trait except to give grapplers more chances or to counteract absurd offensive traits.

Yeah, not all female chars are weaker in health (most are). Same with the guys. Not all the normal, non-evil guys, normal sized guys don't have the best blessing when it comes to HP as well. I totally forgot about Yun! Look at Gen in SF4, his HP is SUPER weak, but he has many dangerous tools. Same with Dhalsim. Dhalsim is another glass jaw character. Dhalsim might be as weak as normal Akuma.

IIRC, R.Mika is comparable to both Zangief, T-Hawk, E-Honda, and Blanka, for some strange reason.
Re: Rules of HP/Defense that MUGEN creators tend to forget
#5  November 16, 2020, 12:47:30 AM
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I'm sure a large portion of creators do not use cheatengine or artmoney to find specific values (a large portion of characters don't even have correct walking velocities) and it's less a question of not knowing as much as not caring. POTS' style is a classic example of aesthetics over data anyway.

I personally use base 1000 and 100 constants simply because of this. Unless it's a fullgame I cannot guarantee there will be a sense of balance anyway, and anyone who is bothered by this can easily change those values.
Re: Rules of HP/Defense that MUGEN creators tend to forget
#6  November 16, 2020, 12:48:34 AM
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 I should point out some games do use universal life values regardless of characters both commercial and independent. Every TasoFro fighting game ever, Dengeki Bunko: Fighting Climax and Dragon Ball FighterZ are examples of these.
Re: Rules of HP/Defense that MUGEN creators tend to forget
#7  November 16, 2020, 12:52:34 AM
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Let me give my 2 cents here.

You're talking about values in an official game (CvS2), it would make sense if the creator aimed for accuracy with a CvS2 styled character, but PotS style is not the same as CvS2. They use the same system, the same sprites, but they are not the same thing string by string. Would be the same as comparing moves that a PotS character have, but the CvS counterpart don't have.

I understand your point, but I don't think this is something obligatory. It's up to the creator if he wants accuracy or not.

I also have a perfect example of something I did about life values that is similar to reducing it on the constants:

[State -2, Defense Levels]
type = LifeAdd
triggerall = !AILevel
trigger1 = GetHitVar(HitCount) = 1 && GetHitVar(Damage)
trigger1 = StateNo != [760,762]
value = -ceil(ifElse(var(40) = 1, 0.25, 0.15) * GetHitVar(Damage))
kill = 0
ignoreHitPause = 1

This is taken from my Akuma. Var(40) is his Shin mode. Basically translating, Shin mode gets a lot more damage than normal mode, and even normal mode gets more damage than normal characters, but ONLY if he is being controlled by a human player. While controlled by the AI, his life will not be changed, making him more of a challenge (he is a boss character, anyway).

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Last Edit: November 16, 2020, 02:12:09 AM by ー
Re: Rules of HP/Defense that MUGEN creators tend to forget
#8  November 16, 2020, 01:12:58 AM
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To be honest, I personally don't usually modify the health/defense values at all unless I have a rather special reason for such things (and such reasons are quite rare). It is because I have a roaster of over a hundred characters in my roster (with more coming in time to time) and trying to balance all of the characters will take an obnoxiously long time to accomplish, if I ever get to that point. It would be a full-time job without pay.

I release my characters at 1000 life and 100 defense because that is usually the norm. If the consumers have objections and a better idea on what should the health and defense should be, Notepad is under Windows Accessories and the lines of coding is not hard to find.
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Re: Rules of HP/Defense that MUGEN creators tend to forget
#9  November 16, 2020, 01:45:16 AM
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I release my characters at 1000 life and 100 defense because that is usually the norm. If the consumers have objections and a better idea on what should the health and defense should be, Notepad is under Windows Accessories and the lines of coding is not hard to find.

You can do whatever you want man. However this ultimately trickles down to the players. There's already much confusion involved as a result. A few players think they're actually good, until you tell them originally in SF games this Akuma or female char has some weak HP, and they just laugh at you like you're crazy, they think you're just speaking your opinion even though it's factual. Some have even called me sexist. Anyways, I personally don't like doing the same HP for everybody, I think it's silly to see a schoolgirl match the same HP as Zangief or Sagat. I just feel like this is a thing most people actually overlook, without bad intentions, of course.

Let me give my 2 cents here.

You're talking about values in an official game (CvS2), it would make sense if the creator aimed for accuracy with a CvS2 styled character, but PotS style is not the same as CvS2. They use the same system, the same sprites, but they are not the same thing string by string. Would be the same as comparing moves that a PotS character have, but the CvS counterpart don't have.

I understand your point, but you I don't think this is something obligatory. It's up to the creator if he wants accuracy or not. I also have a perfect example of something I did about life values that is similar to reducing it on the constants:

This is taken from my Akuma. Var(40) is his Shin mode. Basically translating, Shin mode gets a lot more damage than normal mode, and even normal mode gets more damage than normal characters, but ONLY if he is being controlled by a human player. While controlled by the AI, his life will not be changed, making him more of a challenge (he is a boss character, anyway).

I said CvS2, or pretty much, mostly all SF games. Not just CvS2 exclusively. Akuma in 3S has weak HP. Along with SF4. Even POTS' has his Shin Gouki's HP at 850 or (889). So why give him 1000? Doesn't make sense. It's not obligatory, no one is forcing you to. But when people who actually play a lot of the original games can sense it, it's doing a disservice to the user of your character, making him/her think he's playing fair, and it's doing a disservice to his opponent who seems to be at a disadvantage. Let's forget about full games for a second and just think about regular matchups. Do you think the inconsistencies are okay? I personally dont think so.

On a side note, I'm curious, but is it only SF that handles HP values like this? Does KOF (or SNK) games handle it the same way?
Last Edit: November 16, 2020, 01:49:20 AM by extravagant
Re: Rules of HP/Defense that MUGEN creators tend to forget
#10  November 16, 2020, 02:00:41 AM
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as far as I've gathered from datamining FFS, RBS and Wild Ambition, Fatal Fury does have flat levels because the red bar for desperation moves is the point of balance. It would be a little bullshit if Andy got to use a DM before Terry could, especially as you can do them infinitely at half health.

I still have my Fatal Fury Special stuff lying around
Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty

I worked a little in KOF XI and the health values are flat there but I don't have my data anymore

For what it's worth, Vans' KOF conversions use flat 1000, 100
Re: Rules of HP/Defense that MUGEN creators tend to forget
#11  November 16, 2020, 02:13:46 AM
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as far as I've gathered from datamining FFS, RBS and Wild Ambition, Fatal Fury does have flat levels because the red bar for desperation moves is the point of balance. It would be a little bullshit if Andy got to use a DM before Terry could, especially as you can do them infinitely at half health.

I still have my Fatal Fury Special stuff lying around
Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty

I worked a little in KOF XI and the health values are flat there but I don't have my data anymore

For what it's worth, Vans' KOF conversions use flat 1000, 100

Thanks, that's good to know. It seems like it might just be an SF trait then.

(a large portion of characters don't even have correct walking velocities)

lol
Re: Rules of HP/Defense that MUGEN creators tend to forget
#12  November 16, 2020, 02:30:46 AM
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This is an interesting discussion.

You're talking about values in an official game (CvS2), it would make sense if the creator aimed for accuracy with a CvS2 styled character, but PotS style is not the same as CvS2. They use the same system, the same sprites, but they are not the same thing string by string. Would be the same as comparing moves that a PotS character have, but the CvS counterpart don't have.

I don't think this is a matter of the style you are emulating. You can code CvS2 system character and decide that Kyosuke sucks so you arrange data in order to buff him. In the same vain, you can code a POTS character and try to emulate data as much as possible like Jmorphman and me (I'm more conservative with data than him). IMO its 100% the first thing you said: what is creator is aiming for.

I think people neglect data because they either:

A) Don't know enough fighting game theory

B) They think their game sense is good enough to make data themselves (which is most of the time wrong).

C) They are using someone else's data and barely know what they're doing.

The dynamic behind life in fighting games is quite simple. Slow damaging grapplers (Zangief) have a hard time getting in so they buffed their life in order to balance around the cast controlling space against them. Quick damaging rushdown characters (Gouki) have easier time getting in so they nerfed their life in order to make fragile when punished.

It's strictly a risk/reward relationship. Your reward for picking Zangief is high damage and high hp. Your risk is getting zoned because your mobility is limited. Your reward for picking Akuma is high damage and high mobility. Your risk is losing quickly because your opponent reads you like a book. Damage/Life/Mobility are not the only parameters to balance around, zoning tools are important too.

In SSVSP, your reward for picking Mina is to beat the best character in the game because her zoning is amazing and gedo's mobility is very limited. Your risk is losing to most of the other characters because she can die to one raged AB.

Compared to other things, deciding a character's health is an easy task, but there's aspects on character designing that require to have knowledge that goes beyond "I want the move to look cool". Someone that doesn't know what okizeme means will not care about how much time P2 stays knocked down, both when creating a character and playing a character.

Design philosophies are a thing. Some people have the tools to make things accurate but think their game sense is good enough to improvise: see JtheSaltyy, who dropped datamining I think since Sagat or Boxer. He is totally happy with the results, and some other people is happy too, but for me its a like/hatewithpassion relationship, because my design philosophy is very strict. I think characters should play like source. This is not saying that you should use Samurai Shodown data on a CvSesque system, its about keeping the essence of the character alive in your conversion. Is this sense, character's strengths/weaknesses from source should carry over to the system your emulating. This is the same philosophy Capcom had while porting SNK characters to CvS2. Nakoruru is very quick and mobile in CvS2 because she is very quick and mobile in Samurai Shodown.

Of course, my design philosophy is limited to what I know. I've never been a Boxer player so if Saltyy made him play nothing like source I wouldn't know. I played as and even more against Ukyo, so my eyes bleed when I saw that he butchered standing B, or that I couldn't do his basic mixup routine (2C xx tsubame gaeshi). In the same vain, I hate with passion what R@CE made with Haohmaru and Earthquake, but I love his Batsu most likely because I've never played Rival Schools or Tatsunoko vs Capcom or whatever game Batsu is in once in my life. I think Tenka is a meme at best so extravagant's Mina feels badly designed imo, but I can't formulate an opinion on his Iroha because I didn't play neither Tenka/SS2019 enough.

What I want to say is that your knowledge and familiarity can limit your approach to data too.
Re: Rules of HP/Defense that MUGEN creators tend to forget
#13  November 16, 2020, 02:57:07 AM
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I think characters should play like source. This is not saying that you should use Samurai Shodown data on a CvSesque system, its about keeping the essence of the character alive in your conversion. Is this sense, character's strengths/weaknesses from source should carry over to the system your emulating. This is the same philosophy Capcom had while porting SNK characters to CvS2. Nakoruru is very quick and mobile in CvS2 because she is very quick and mobile in Samurai Shodown.

This is, I think, a very good point. In terms of conversions (and especially total system conversions), there are two kinds of people: those who work only with sources that they know well (Ironmugen, Vans, Jesuszilla, KoopaKoot, H", Warusaki) and those who play with different kinds of characters because they think it would be interesting. Not to pick on people but POTS' style stuff, or even CvS-ish and MvC-ish stuff, seems to be like the latter.

You can be in the latter and really understand CvS, but if you make a Ninja Masters' character simply because you think it will be cool, but haven't really opened it up outside of playing casual games, then you won't have an understanding of what makes Goemon Goemon. In any conversion I DO expect the standard basic combos. Big juggles can be open to interpretation, but a Yamazaki that can't even do an A, B, Mid Snake Arm shows me that the creator has a fundamental lack of understanding of how the characters really feel and what their playstyle is about.
Last Edit: November 16, 2020, 08:04:31 AM by Bannana
Re: Rules of HP/Defense that MUGEN creators tend to forget
#14  November 16, 2020, 03:31:06 AM
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This is, I think, a very good point. In terms of conversions (and especially total system conversions), there are two kinda of people: those who work only with sources that they know well (Ironmugen, Vans, Jesuszilla, KoopaKoot, H", Warusaki) and those who play with different kinds of characters because they think it would be interesting. Not to pick on people but POTS' style stuff, or even CvS-ish and MvC-ish stuff, seems to be like the latter.
Pick on them as much as you want, that's how it is. I'm a POTS style author myself but I can't deny that. Not all authors are the same but you can tell some never booted CvS2 by just jumping with the character.
Re: Rules of HP/Defense that MUGEN creators tend to forget
#15  November 17, 2020, 11:23:32 AM
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Re: Rules of HP/Defense that MUGEN creators tend to forget
#16  December 03, 2020, 06:47:38 AM
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There is no such thing called balance in MUGEN community not in the roster keeper.

your balance is not my balance.
your equal is not my equal.
only math equal can be equal!  like 1=1 or 2=2

let took one of your idea
some char need to be less than 1000. but to what extend?
999 is less than 1000 but also 10 is also less than 1000, why you pick 889 not 888? not 777? why 889 is equal for you? not 810?
it is pointless to talk like this. only 1000=1000

real commercial game have a manager behind it, if player found some character is too cheap or too weak, player can use money to vote and not buying the game so the Game have a Ultimate goal which is attracting the player. so the manager will tweak the balance based on player's money.

but MUGEN creators have no manager and no player's money, so the product's goal is not to attract player or their money but entertain creator themself.  if the creator's roster have full of overpowered cheap character (this is shaped by country, envionment, and cultrue), clearly make a "balanced" character will result the character got beaten by other cheap one so badly, and anyone saw their own effect and time got beaten  is a heart breaking experience. so creator will create a more overpowered one to counter the "balance" to find back a good experience and no manager will say no to you.

you see the real balance keeper is not creator, but the roster builder for MUGEN.


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Re: Rules of HP/Defense that MUGEN creators tend to forget
#17  December 03, 2020, 12:08:31 PM
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real commercial game have a manager behind it, if player found some character is too cheap or too weak, player can use money to vote and not buying the game so the Game have a Ultimate goal which is attracting the player. so the manager will tweak the balance based on player's money.
I don't think that's how that works, but ok.
Re: Rules of HP/Defense that MUGEN creators tend to forget
#18  January 09, 2021, 02:18:21 AM
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ELECTR0 is an example of a creator who gives characters two different life values, one at a universal 1000 and the other more varied. This allows for user choice more easily, with a built-in alternative. Defense stats are also variable. In Pokemon, HP, DEF and SP.DEF are not the same, which I feel like is a good idea for MUGEN. This is why Blissey works differently from Skarmory, gameplay-wise; DEF vs HP. I do like a variety in my defensive abilities, anyways.
Re: Rules of HP/Defense that MUGEN creators tend to forget
#19  January 09, 2021, 11:31:23 AM
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Except Pokemon is balanced around being a turn based ROG and Mugen is based on Fighting games.

Of course, some would argue that Pokemon isn't balanced either.
Re: Rules of HP/Defense that MUGEN creators tend to forget
#20  January 09, 2021, 08:56:08 PM
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they do that for balancing purposes  and since mugen chars can be edited they use a general value implying the end user should edit the character value (unless the author made some tricky stuff to being unable to edit).
For example i saw years ago someone posting a Saint Seiya mugen but with values based on the series so gold saints were stronger while bronze saints were weak it was a good example of how things should be done but sadly no one follows the rules.
In the street fighter games the stronger characters after seeing their HP,ATK and DEF are Gouki and Vega (using the japanese games as normal) followed by Ryu so those are the top 3 and each one has advantages and disadvantages to them,Gouki has high combo but low damage in that point,while Ryu has low combo but makes the same damage as gouki,Vega has high speed,low combo and difficulty to control yet if it lands a good one can be fatal.
Balancing is an issue since you have to make a character to make two other characters get stuck the street fighter example is the best since the 3 are almost the same in theory but each one has an advantage over the other Gouki stops Vega,Vega stops Ryu and Ryu stops Gouki.
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