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An idea to aid creation and motivate users? (Read 5171 times)

Started by JustNoPoint, September 04, 2015, 07:05:22 pm
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JustNoPoint

An idea to aid creation and motivate users?
#1  September 04, 2015, 07:05:22 pm
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This is still mostly a brainstorm. So bare with me. Give ideas and tweak as needed.

I want to do something to make it easier for newer people to come into the forums. Information is kinda spread around and after all these years most people still have to rework the same characters over and over starting from scratch.

So here are some ideas I have:
 Make a few more user trophies.
These would be trophies that users could "achieve" and lose.
Maybe take back away the custom title rights and use them in conjunction.
Example. We have a couple users that are extra helpful in the help boards. They respond to the bulk of the questions. So they could get a Helper award.
If they become too inactive they can lose it over time.
Other "achievements" could include. CS Brigade, Spriter Brigade, SFF brigade, etc

Some of those tie in to the idea below.
I'm in the process of trying to rip some characters I'd previously ripped. I want to do this because some of them could be improved on and to make a new tutorial showcasing all the newest time saving ways we have now.

The next step is to make a community standard for the sff and air files. Releasing a template and trying to teach users how to build the sff files from the rips.

If I make it to this stage I'd like to make a new board somewhere (don't know what to name it yet) that focuses on making accurate templates.

I figure threads would be filtered using the filter tags.
Example
Darkstalkers would have it's own icon.
Each character would have it's own topic. And the game's mechanics/info would also have a topic.
In a character topic you'd find the rips and sff. Users are encouraged to submit coding for the character's moves. Discuss the character's play stule. Build accurate air files, etc.
This would also double as a good place to funnel resources of the character. I figure the info in the thread couple be split from Accurate to derivative.
Derivative contributions would be CS edits to the sff, new sprites for said sff, turbo versions of the air files. So it's be the one main hub/pit stop for all the stuff that ppl could contribute for said character.

It just seems strange that after all these years we don't have a decent standard yet anyone can grab and tweak. Something rooted in the source but accessible to be tweaked and built upon.

Anyway, just some thoughts. I hope I explained them well.
 

Sinnesloschen

Re: An idea to aid creation and motivate users?
#2  September 04, 2015, 07:12:27 pm
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The trophies and such sound like gimmicks at best considering we have plenty of people doing their thing without worrying them and contributor already pretty nicely blankets over generally helping the community. There's also the fact that contributor is permanent and grants unlimited inbox space, as opposed to these trophies which are probably just gonna be there for the sake of being there while they're there.

tl;dr we already have a star for helping people and it's motivation enough. Look at the few people who try to nominate themselves. That's motivation already.
Just No Point said, September 04, 2015, 07:05:22 pm
If I make it to this stage I'd like to make a new board somewhere (don't know what to name it yet) that focuses on making accurate templates.
This here is good shit tho. I'd really love to see a board like this come together where people can grab various games' info and sprites and such and get right to creating with the right bit of initiative and know-how provided by whatever's already in there. We have Koopakoot's little KOF character tutorial already; were you thinking of something like that? Because I've given it a solid looking over and it's the kind of info other games should have available but just don't. A lot of character creation at this point is still trade secret even with open source being the norm.

Of course this could come with some slight saturation in the character "market" but knowing the source games I'm interested in that won't be a problem. :P
Alpaca-San said, December 27, 2014, 08:50:31 am
Is finding MUGEN to be more enjoyable to play when you're not wearing clothes an underrated opinion?

Foobs

Re: An idea to aid creation and motivate users?
#3  September 04, 2015, 07:28:04 pm
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Yeah, no gimmicks please. You know you're the only one who would really be behind the idea and even then just for six months. Plus, those thropies look hideous :P

Your other idea is pretty nice, (though most of us aren't really fit to help you with that) a creation-centric board with special focus on newcomers. The only downside to it is that...you'll pretty much have to build it with Vans and/or JZ since there's nobody around who knows anywhere as much as those two when it comes to accuracy.

JustNoPoint

Re: An idea to aid creation and motivate users?
#4  September 04, 2015, 07:34:50 pm
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Sinneslochen said, September 04, 2015, 07:12:27 pm
The trophies and such sound like gimmicks at best considering we have plenty of people doing their thing without worrying them and contributor already pretty nicely blankets over generally helping the community. There's also the fact that contributor is permanent and grants unlimited inbox space, as opposed to these trophies which are probably just gonna be there for the sake of being there while they're there.

tl;dr we already have a star for helping people and it's motivation enough. Look at the few people who try to nominate themselves. That's motivation already.

The trophies ARE gimmicks. But I'm trying to think of what might give a small reward if someone was to help make an sff. I was thinking groups of eager people becoming the "SFF Brigade" may make them want to work together better. Like they're a team. I also understand it can give a sense of superiority but I don't think it'd be anything on the level of "Creator" like we once had.

Not that that was the bulk of the idea obviously the meat was below that.
Sinneslochen said, September 04, 2015, 07:12:27 pm
This here is good shit tho. I'd really love to see a board like this come together where people can grab various games' info and sprites and such and get right to creating with the right bit of initiative and know-how provided by whatever's already in there. We have Koopakoot's little KOF character tutorial already; were you thinking of something like that? Because I've given it a solid looking over and it's the kind of info other games should have available but just don't. A lot of character creation at this point is still trade secret even with open source being the norm.

Of course this could come with some slight saturation in the character "market" but knowing the source games I'm interested in that won't be a problem. :P

Yes all that info could be put into said board. Specifically under the KOF tag filter. Specific data mining tutorials like this would be a great idea to add to this.
As for the saturation. That'd be a good thing if the bases FEEL fairly close to their game. The way I see it is the easier you give people access to accurate materials the more likely they'll want to use it. Just like when sprite rips came about with perfect axis. More "bad" characters came about. But their axis was accurate and they weren't missing animation frames anymore!

Fubs said, September 04, 2015, 07:28:04 pm
Yeah, no gimmicks please. You know you're the only one who would really be behind the idea and even then just for six months. Plus, those thropies look hideous :P

Your other idea is pretty nice, (though most of us aren't really fit to help you with that) a creation-centric board with special focus on newcomers. The only downside to it is that...you'll pretty much have to build it with Vans and/or JZ since there's nobody around who knows anywhere as much as those two when it comes to accuracy.
I've already approached Jz and we're working together on this. Others are Felineki and our own @Palette Jesus:


The easiest parts of the board would still be sff making which coming up with standard sff templates we could build upon would still be most helpful. Even if it became more geared to CS, sff, edits all in one place it'd still be more organized and easier to find stuff for creators IMO

EDIT: I kinda figured you guys wouldn't care much for the achievements ideas. Just wanted to clarify WHY it was bouncing in my head. You know how kids these days are with their achievements :P

c001357

Re: An idea to aid creation and motivate users?
#5  September 04, 2015, 08:47:41 pm
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$$$ is a good motivator :ball:

JustNoPoint

Re: An idea to aid creation and motivate users?
#6  September 04, 2015, 09:18:24 pm
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If things go well in the next few months I figured a little monetary reward or Steam gifting may not be a bad idea either. Make contests or something out of it.

EDIT: Don't lock my threads fubs! No one could possibly post in it here!!! >:-(

Sinnesloschen

Re: An idea to aid creation and motivate users?
#7  September 04, 2015, 09:30:26 pm
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Just No Point said, September 04, 2015, 07:34:50 pm
The trophies ARE gimmicks. But I'm trying to think of what might give a small reward if someone was to help make an sff. I was thinking groups of eager people becoming the "SFF Brigade" may make them want to work together better. Like they're a team. I also understand it can give a sense of superiority but I don't think it'd be anything on the level of "Creator" like we once had.
Another issue with this idea that I didn't bring up previously is that keeping track of activity/inactivity with those helper trophies and such is gonna be a bit of a prick unless we have all of the names written down somewhere. I'm not really a fan of the idea of keeping track of peoples' activity just to take away some silly gimmick when they stop being active in help topics and such. It's also gonna wind up being subjective cuz IRL circumstances might play a part and knowing us we won't even have a definite deadline to remove the thing by. Will it be twenty days, thirty days, that sort of thing. Too many little headaches for me to want to stomach overall.

The money thing I'm not really gonna vest anything into since that's just kinda silly lol.
Alpaca-San said, December 27, 2014, 08:50:31 am
Is finding MUGEN to be more enjoyable to play when you're not wearing clothes an underrated opinion?

Umezono

Re: An idea to aid creation and motivate users?
#8  September 04, 2015, 09:35:01 pm
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I'd like to compile useful threads/posts for one big multiresource guide.

JustNoPoint

Re: An idea to aid creation and motivate users?
#9  September 04, 2015, 09:45:15 pm
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Umezono

Re: An idea to aid creation and motivate users?
#10  September 04, 2015, 10:31:41 pm
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well it should be updated if it hasnt already, theres plenty recent stuff that should be archived properly.

JustNoPoint

Re: An idea to aid creation and motivate users?
#11  September 04, 2015, 10:47:13 pm
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Indeed.

Feel free to bring things up to update stickies and increase motivation and creation around here! In a few years I'd like to see someone being able to grab a fully functional CVS2 Ryu and just throw their own spin on that base. Why so many people have to rebuild Ryu from scratch now 16 years into this engine is beyond me =p

c001357

Re: An idea to aid creation and motivate users?
#12  September 04, 2015, 11:02:04 pm
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a lot of this can be simplified imo; we could call for anyone with the experience to write up a tutorial and template and put them in tips n tricks.
another problem is judging demand - we did a lot of things that just didnt work out. i dunno. maybe its a chicken or egg thing: how many people are interested in making a character in a certain style? are they enough to ask an experienced creator to write something up or should we expect new recruits to come because of it?

actually this gave me an idea: this sounds like an online course type thing where interested people could work their way within a certain thread about a certain style, guided by interested parties (then again, theres also no reason why they can already do this in devhelp)

Just No Point said, September 04, 2015, 10:47:13 pm
In a few years I'd like to see someone being able to grab a fully functional CVS2 Ryu and just throw their own spin on that base.

but they can already do this right now, noone is stopping them

Just No Point said, September 04, 2015, 07:05:22 pm
I figure threads would be filtered using the filter tags.
Example
Darkstalkers would have it's own icon.
Each character would have it's own topic. And the game's mechanics/info would also have a topic.
In a character topic you'd find the rips and sff. Users are encouraged to submit coding for the character's moves. Discuss the character's play stule. Build accurate air files, etc.
This would also double as a good place to funnel resources of the character. I figure the info in the thread couple be split from Accurate to derivative.
Derivative contributions would be CS edits to the sff, new sprites for said sff, turbo versions of the air files. So it's be the one main hub/pit stop for all the stuff that ppl could contribute for said character.

like, honestly this is basically mfg presents darkstalkers

i think the issue youre talking about is not how easy it is for newer people to join (they just have to register) but having more of them to make stuff (for what? are we in a slump?). the problem is that my view of the balance of effort-to-interest for this tells me theres a good chance of this going nowhere

or not. im usually in the wrong in these debates. dont let me stop you

and now for something constructive: a contest for creating any mugen-related thing only open to non-contributors. participants get help when requested in-thread
Last Edit: September 04, 2015, 11:29:58 pm by c001357

JustNoPoint

Re: An idea to aid creation and motivate users?
#13  September 04, 2015, 11:26:57 pm
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Quote
a lot of this can be simplified imo; we could call for anyone with the experience to write up a tutorial and template and put them in tips n tricks.
As someone going through the trouble of scouring the forum looking for tutorials and trying to make my own accurate works atm I can tell you that looking through those boards for anything specific is a nightmare. I've spent hours trying to find info I need. And then I'll find something else that challenges it or is slightly the mechanic needed but not quite.
That's why I think it'd be nice to have a board dedicated to making it easier to find everything about "x" game in one simple location. Something that should be updated as new info replaces old. I've considered building the board into a wiki since I can direct a board to any html site.
Still brainstorming the best method to make it easiest to update. Cause man I hate it when updating this crap relies on US =p

Quote
another problem is judging demand - we did a lot of things that just didnt work out. i dunno. maybe its a chicken or egg thing: how many people are interested in making a character in a certain style? are they enough to ask an experienced creator to write something up or should we expect new recruits to come because of it?
I'm not sure if they would actually be a full CVS2 character. Again it's a brainstorm. But like what if the basic Ryu stuff was coded into the template. Like the basics, and obvious specials. And everything else would be extra. Want grooves? Here's how you'd plug grooves in. Want the Donkey kick? Here are the sprites for that with axis and recommended group. Palettes are ready and everything. Here is the air data you need and the cns and cmd coding.

Some of that stuff would need further explanation to implement. Like you'll have to understand vars well for grooves and such. But that's kind of the idea. A more "plug and play" creation process. The more complicated pieces of coding could have more dedication to explanation from those that know it. I hope to be one of those once I finish a few of the projects I have now. I was starting to get quite far with Ryu before I went back to comic making.

Quote
but they can already do this right now, noone is stopping them
Yes I know. But I feel a standard could be set much better by announcing "THIS" is a standard. Right now someone would just grab whatever Ryu they wanted to tweak. And typically it's not easy to dissect something trying to keep tabs on the vars etc.
This method could make some more community standard vars so it's easier to plug new character coding into it. Instead of everyone trying to do their own thing we'd define the most basic of things and work outwards from there.

Or maybe only I would do that. I dunno :P

Quote
like, honestly this is basically mfg presents darkstalkers
Kind of. You'll notice I am now trying to work this a bit into MFG SF. So yes, some of this you've heard before. I'm trying to build on it is all.
Last Edit: September 04, 2015, 11:34:57 pm by Just No Point

c001357

Re: An idea to aid creation and motivate users?
#14  September 04, 2015, 11:49:37 pm
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Jmorphman

Re: An idea to aid creation and motivate users?
#15  September 05, 2015, 04:12:40 am
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I also have reservations about adding trophies and titles and what not, but the rest sounds cool.

JustNoPoint

Re: An idea to aid creation and motivate users?
#16  September 05, 2015, 04:21:15 am
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No trophies then :p

Kinda trying to turn MFG SF into a sort of beta ground for this. It's not something I'll fully be unleashing soon. Which is why I brought it up here. More forethought planning from different perspectives.

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Re: An idea to aid creation and motivate users?
#17  September 05, 2015, 08:28:56 pm
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Foobs

Re: An idea to aid creation and motivate users?
#18  September 06, 2015, 05:28:21 am
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Oh yeah, forgot you're the only one who has gone balls deep into datamining SFIII.

inktrebuchet

Re: An idea to aid creation and motivate users?
#19  September 09, 2015, 12:08:12 am
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Just No Point said, September 04, 2015, 07:05:22 pm
The next step is to make a community standard for the sff and air files. Releasing a template and trying to teach users how to build the sff files from the rips.

If I make it to this stage I'd like to make a new board somewhere (don't know what to name it yet) that focuses on making accurate templates.

I figure threads would be filtered using the filter tags.
Example
Darkstalkers would have it's own icon.
Each character would have it's own topic. And the game's mechanics/info would also have a topic.
In a character topic you'd find the rips and sff. Users are encouraged to submit coding for the character's moves. Discuss the character's play stule. Build accurate air files, etc.
This would also double as a good place to funnel resources of the character. I figure the info in the thread couple be split from Accurate to derivative.
Derivative contributions would be CS edits to the sff, new sprites for said sff, turbo versions of the air files. So it's be the one main hub/pit stop for all the stuff that ppl could contribute for said character.

It just seems strange that after all these years we don't have a decent standard yet anyone can grab and tweak. Something rooted in the source but accessible to be tweaked and built upon.
I can't believe this doesn't already exist! Why would anyone remake sff and air files over and over again from scratch!?

This is a great idea! In the future hopefully people look for sff's instead of sprite packs/sheets. I prefer them even for sprite reference.

Demitri

Re: An idea to aid creation and motivate users?
#20  September 09, 2015, 12:15:39 am
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There are a few reasons. My favorite being the experience of the whole process. You learn a lot by doing, rather than having a bunch done for you before hand.
I'm guilty of both. I used to just mess with other people's SFF's, now I can do my own. I hate the gethits process still, but it's all important.

Another reason to remake a SFF is if the person who made it before organized it in a weird way. Or maybe they misaligned a bunch of sprites while you have these perfectly aligned sprites on a axis lying around that you could just add and make a sff out of.

Same mentality for AIr files but clsns and other junk.
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