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Way to go Dev >:( =P (Read 20209 times)

Started by Cybasterd, June 30, 2004, 03:19:01 AM
Re:Way to go Dev >:( =P
#21  July 03, 2004, 01:18:56 AM
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I fully agree that if possible all feedback go back to Dev.

But should we not expand the rights to use abandoned stuff that creators left behind?

To me allowing this is more severe than simply grabbing some stuff a creator abandoned.

It's not the same, because a character that has been "abandoned" still works in your mugen. And in case it doesn't you can release "patches" or fixes like Winane does with other characters (telling people how to fix X character)

The creator still has the property of the code and his work is credited. In the same way, Elecbyte is still the owner of elecbyte, and Rouhei's work credits elecbyte.

When a thief uses code from other creators, he doesn't credit them, thus it's against the ethic of the community.

As conclusion, characters abandoned still retains the ownership of the creator, because there's no need for official support in order to make it work, therfore you cannot take it as "abandonware". Mugen, in the other way, has been abandoned and there's no official support. Hence if you need to "fix" it in order to use it in newer computers.
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Re:Way to go Dev >:( =P
#22  July 03, 2004, 12:30:59 PM
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umm... short question: does the fixed version still have bugs like the not working p2stateno-param? if yes, I'll stick with dos and linux mugen...

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But along that same line of thinking, I can take a character made for the much older DOS mugen by a long gone creator, patch it up to work in the latest DOS mugen and add new bells and whistles, and re-release it just as long as I give full credit to the original creator.

if he doesn't explicitly say "do not redistribute/modify", imo, yes.

if I, after "leaving the mugen scene long time ago", saw one of my chars (assuming I released one :P) "renewed" and released with proper credit, I'd like it. :)
Re:Way to go Dev >:( =P
#23  July 04, 2004, 07:32:41 AM
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We did not promote the elecbyte1 version because:
- there was no mention of Elecbyte credited as the original creator.
"Elecbyte1"
"Whiners In Numbers May Ultimately Get Elecbyte Nixed"
"Elecbyte1 isn't Elecbyte"

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- the hack surfaced just when Elecbyte disappeared, giving the idea that it was what caused Eledcbyte to closed thier site
"Giving the idea" isn't as solid as the fact that the domain name was renewed.

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- the DOS hack (yes, there was one prior to the winmugen one) was full with flames to certain members of the community as well, as discrediting Elecbyte.
The one Messatsu posted about?
Which members of the community, BTW? Some quotes of that might help to understand this, especially the bit about "discrediting Elecbyte".

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We promote Rouhei's version because:

- Credits Elecbyte as the original creators
Pretty much everyone who can tell Mugen itself from "games" made with it knows it's Elecbyte's work, and even Elecbyte1 didn't bother to disguise that.
Several creators' sites still link to Elecbyte.com despite the fact that it doesn't work - it's hard to ignore that they created Mugen.

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- mention that if Elecbyte ever returns or requests to stop the distribution, he will stop it. DEV will remove the feedback section and forbid further mentioning/distibution of such version
But now that Dev has decided to openly promote it, anyone who cares the slightest bit about Mugen and doesn't know about this version soon will, and the harm will have been done and impossible to fix...
Consequences of that are already visible, like FlowaGirl's decision to remove the DOS versions of this creations from his site and adding there a link to Rou Hei's site...

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- Current status of mugen falls on abandonware. It's impossible to get mugen from an official source, there's no official support and many computers cannot run in due to XP issues.
This also applies to the Elecbyte1 version - the only major difference being that more features are unlocked, making it more appealing for things other than testing creations.

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We have chosen the lesser evil, as I said.
Doesn't the "lesser evil" principle only apply when you're forced into a choice by forces outside you?
You said "DEV was the first one to contact rouhei", so it wasn't a choice, but an initiative - that's forcing a choice to be made here.
At least this time it's not forcing one of the options...

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I prefer having a version working and the community happy with it and praising Elecbyte as the original creators, than everybody using a warezed/hacked version crediting to Elecbyte1 (or any other name since you can change it) and forgetting in the long run that mugen originated from Elecbyte.
I seriously doubt that Elecbyte will ever be completely forgotten by anyone who knows Mugen, and as for the eventual praising of the likes of Elecbyte1, Dev sure helped RouHei get a lot of attention and vice-versa.

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I don't want wither to find winmugen spreading in underground/warez scenes and people from the mugen community migrating to those communities. That will mean the end of our community.
It's already not unusual to find Mugen sections in roms/warez sites,not to mention Mugen games on places like eBay - this won't change a thing about that, other than make Mugen an even more popular choice at such places now that it's easier to find a fully functional version of the program for Windows.

As for people migrating to other communities, several people hang out in very different types of net communities at once, even if they tend to favour one or just a few.
Even if such communities involve things like warez (as if several people in the Mugen community didn't already have a foot in very questionably legal emulation communities), that's none of a Mugen forum's business unless the individual in question has a directly negative impact on the Mugen community.

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regarding the  banned people from the elecbyte1 incident, you can unban them. I wonder why you didn't unban them before, since that ban was intended as a temporary one and not a definite one.
All were unbanned before Nunor changed the penalty from banning to muting - except PacificAngra because he'd created a new account by then. I've contacted Nunor about that decision, since it's obsolete now, not to mention it'd stop new accounts - he barely posts, so the IP ban set by Val just for PA could be removed.

BTW, if you intended the bans in question to be temporary, why didn't you say so back then or resorted to muting, which would have been temporary by default?
Mutings would have been reasonable enough, but you acted like you would have in Dev.

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Now it's time for some hypothesis.
The Elecbyte1 bans were also based on a hypothesis: that as long as a hack was around Elecbyte wouldn't return.
Changes between now and then? A domain name renewal and a more complete hack.


If Elecbyte stopped caring and considered not returning, then letting someone else take the domain name would only help get the point across - if someday we find something completely unrelated with Mugen or the Elecbyte we knew at the elecbyte.com domain, it'll be clear that it's over.
Actually paying for rights over a domain name just so it wn't get taken over by a different kind of site might not be something most would bother to do, but what do I know? - but I do doubt that Elecyte would still be spending $ on it if they didn't have a plan after all the work they put into Mugen.

The WinMugen package is small, under 2 MB zipped - leaving stuff out in betas of more modern games with hundreds of MBs is typical due to download times/server strain, but really not the case with something this small.

Remember how quickly they started receivig donations when they released a new version that was for Linux instead of the OS every Mugen user was running it on - if it was easy to convert from DOS to Linux, it could have been a way to encourage people to donate if they wanted a new Mugen they could run without changing OS.
If there really was such a plan, back then it worked - considering how people got used to get all sorts of stuff from the net for free, Elecbyte had to be smart to get their hard work to pay off in some way, and I can't really say I blame them for it...

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MFG can announce rouhei's version freely.
We know it can - we just haven't decided if it will, and what else will change if it does... and messing with the root of the community will imply other changes if we wish to be coherent about it...

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We only mentioned that official feedback and support is done in DEV, because RouHei is registered there and actually getting that feedback. MFG members can post their feedback here if they want, but RouHei won't get anything from it.
Unless someone sends him links to off-Dev topics where his work is discussed.

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The fact that MFG will have to post the feedback in DEV won't steal members from this forum.
There's no concern about stealing of members - especially because Dev took the initiative of banning many of theirs for reasons which weren't always worth it.

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Btw, wasn't the idea of this forum to teach their members about ethics of the community and allow them to share them in other communities?
Ask Nunor - the Guild forum was an offspring of the Guild site, like the original Dev spawned from Mugen4ever.

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Then, why are you forbidding the possibility for such members to register in another community so they can post their feedback?
When did I try to forbid such a thing, as if it were possible?...
We're still discussing this, looking at it from as many points of view as possible, and trying to come up with a course of action, if any, to deal with this new factor - given the impact that this forum has on the community, this has to be very well thought out before we reach a conclusion.

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In DEV, we mention to our members that requests can be made in MFG.
You don't want requests there at all...

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Why can MFG tell their members to go to DEV and post feedback. Seems unfairly to me if you don't allow that.
For the time being nothing regarding Dev's WinMugen section is being allowed of forbidden past the current rule that forbids the discussion of Mugen hacks - if this bothers you today, you shouldn't have banned people here about it then.

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Could you imagine a program like MAME if all developers used their own places to improve the program and weren't in touch with the other devleopers.
Linux?

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It happens that DEV was the first one to contact rouhei and he agreed with the idea, weeks before the "hack" was announced. It's the drawback of the resources that DEV has, and sadly MFG doesn't.
Dev's resources are its staff, who contacted Rouhei - seeing as a member of Dev's staff is also part of this staff, it can be said both forums are sharing a resource: you.
Something like this affects all of the community, so you could have brought up the subject here before, but didn't.
Sadly.

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The fact is that mugen community was fading and many creators either quit or kept their work under secrecy shared only with friends that happen to use a hacked mugen version.
Many creators never needed a hacked WinMugen excuse to keep stuff private.

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After the announcing of our decission, many creators have returned to business.
Who?


Dev being at the right place at the right time... if RouHei had taken the initiative to go there - but you said he was contacted by Dev...
I take it you mean the discovery of his site, and that has to do with individuals, not forums.
Re:Way to go Dev >:( =P
#24  July 05, 2004, 04:03:25 AM
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I meant to make all of these replies in one go yesterday, but the forum wouldn't accept a message that big... :P

In case it hasn't already been mentioned: We're already violating the license by using it beyond the expiration date, even if we're using DOS or Linux Mugen, right?

Yep, because Elecbyte hasn't provided new versions past that date.

I don't think they realistically expected people to drop theis DOS versions just because they made a better one for Linux - although it helped them greatly to get donations.

So far, things have hanged on their action - or lack thereof.

It could be said that using their "expired" Mugens is a "passive" violation of the license (in the sense that no change has occured in users' Mugen habits past the last legal date to use the program), while hacking a beta to get a fully functional new Mugen or seeking one in such condition is a "active" violation...

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Personally, I think I'll wait until I get around to trying to contact someone from Elecbyte myself, probably the weekend after this one (don't wanna bother him while he's busy), before deciding about anything in regard to WinMugen.

I don't recall any past mention of such aquaintances... that'd explain the unusually deep knowledge of things like the SFF file format... :P


Dreamslayer:

Unless vanished creator was known for message like NOT DO MODIFY or REDISTRIBUTE, yes.

I'm inclined to agree - and apparently so is Elecbyte, judging from their Mugen FAQ:

"A character I saw did this cool effect. How was it done?
========================================================

Take note of which states that character was in, and take a look at it
in his `.cns' file. The reason for the open file formats is so that you
can share techniques with other developers."

It seems reasonable to accept use of others' work if they show no sign of being against others using it and credit is given where it's due.

However, it seems that despite Elecbyte's words this course of action is still considered taboo, even in cases where the original creator is mentioned...
Maybe some just love an excuse to accuse people of stealing, I don't know...

Such a paradigm shift in this forum could probably be justified only if the "updated" WinMugen(s) became acceptable around here... forbidding the updating or partial use of creations made with no profit in mind in cases where the original creator can't be contacted while allowing the use of a hacked program protected by copyright laws made with a business plan in mind would be inconsistent, so one thing should only be allowed if the other is too...

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Somehow all this chained my thoughts to a mental search for Limits of What Can Be Allowed and ended somewhat confusingly at There Are No Rules. But there are rules of thumb. Or something. Now I have to reread Traitor. Bastards.

Now I'm curious - who wrote that "Traitor"?... :P


I fully agree that if possible all feedback go back to Dev.

But should we not expand the rights to use abandoned stuff that creators left behind?

To me allowing this is more severe than simply grabbing some stuff a creator abandoned.

It's not the same, because a character that has been "abandoned" still works in your mugen.

Might depend on the Mugen version being used, so I'm told...

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And in case it doesn't you can release "patches" or fixes like Winane does with other characters (telling people how to fix X character)

I recall that Hsieh released his coins patch for ShinRyoga and NeoAhnk's Super Mario in the middle of one of the character's release threads, and I don't recall any mention of previous contacts or permissions between them.
That patch involved updating every file on the character except for the DEF (which anyone can put together just by looking at the list of files in the patch), and to this day Hsieh is still a rather respected member of the community as a creator and when it comes to helping people, without a single accusation of theft being thrown his way.
Credit is given to the original authors only in his website - maybe that was the decisive factor to keep his reputation clean?...
All that's said on Super Mario's readme regarding permissions is this:
"***THIS IS NOT TO BE SOLD UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES!!!***

***Please do not upload SuperMario to your site unless you have
written permission from ShinRyoga or NeoAnkh***"

If he got away with doing something like that, I don't see why others might not get away with making similar changes if the creators of the original character do not forbid it in any manner...

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The creator still has the property of the code and his work is credited. In the same way, Elecbyte is still the owner of elecbyte, and Rouhei's work credits elecbyte.

When a thief uses code from other creators, he doesn't credit them, thus it's against the ethic of the community.

Then someone who makes a release claiming that (s)he used part of creation X from creator Y, who gave no reply despite despite attemps to contact him, shouldn't be considered a thief?...
In such circumstances, many still are...

Or is it that some people are so vocal about accusations of theft that it may be possible that they're wrong if the person in question did everything in his/her power to do things right while trying to share with others an update or new creation that borrowed things from one or more creations?...

After all, Mugen is just a hobby... some people eventually lose interest and stop caring, and may even become impossible to contact again when they move on to other things in life...
Considering such (rather frequent) situations, would it be totally wrong to allow their work, originally distributed out of willingness to share fandom/creativity with no thoughts of profit in mind, to help others with their own Mugen works if nothing was said about forbidding such use - especially considering Elecbyte itself designed Mugen so it'd allow people to learn from each others' creations?...

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As conclusion, characters abandoned still retains the ownership of the creator, because there's no need for official support in order to make it work, therfore you cannot take it as "abandonware". Mugen, in the other way, has been abandoned and there's no official support. Hence if you need to "fix" it in order to use it in newer computers.

Many Windows-based computers still run Mugen, and any new computer can run it in Linux - Elecbyte can't really be blamed if people don't feel like changing OS.

And, as mentioned by elecbyte themsleves, "The reason for the open file formats is so that you can share techniques with other developers." - this implies that by default you shouldn't need to contact other developers who shared their creations with the public if  their code spoke for itself.
Re:Way to go Dev >:( =P
#25  July 05, 2004, 04:41:22 AM
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I don't recall any past mention of such aquaintances... that'd explain the unusually deep knowledge of things like the SFF file format... :P

Haha, no, I think you read way too much into that. :D  I've never been acquainted with anyone from Elecbyte (well, to the best of my knowledge, at least).  And I have my reasons for not publically mentioning how much I do know about them (which is really only a tiny tad bit more than most people). :P  No idea whether I'll actually be able to contact the guy, but I think there's a somewhat significant chance I'll succeed.

My knowledge of the SFF format is just derived from formats.txt, Pcx.txt, a hex editor, mugen.exe, sprmaker.exe, a little help from Christophe, and a bunch of flawed SFFs and SFF tools to do testing with.
Still quite busy.

(Yes, I intend to deal with that stuff eventually, but kinda can't just yet, sorry. :/ )
Re:Way to go Dev >:( =P
#26  July 05, 2004, 11:26:13 PM
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First of all, Loona, I don't know if you have a grudge against me, DEV, or a certain member in DEV's staff, and keep arguing because of that. My apologies if that's not true, but it's the only idea one can get from your messages.

Let's discuss your reply, since there are several points which are either non-sense or contradicted by yourself:


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We did not promote the elecbyte1 version because:
- there was no mention of Elecbyte credited as the original creator.
"Elecbyte1"
"Whiners In Numbers May Ultimately Get Elecbyte Nixed"
"Elecbyte1 isn't Elecbyte"

So, in your wisdom, this is credit. Then I suppose that Orochi's readme where insults brazilian creators is also good credit to brazil. And that calling someone idiot is also crediting that someone. I'm sorry but I cannot share your wisdom here.

Plus, if the elecbyte1 version was ever distributed without any documentation (the sentences you quoted are extracted from that documentation) it's impossible to deduce that elecbyte1 != elecbyte. (the executable is credited to Elecbyte1). So, your defense point is really weak, since you are only agreeing with what I posted previously. RouHei's version credits Elecbyte in the executable, and this credit will continue even if there's no documentation at all. That's why DEV allows its distribution, while elecbyte1's one is forbidden.

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- the hack surfaced just when Elecbyte disappeared, giving the idea that it was what caused Eledcbyte to closed thier site
"Giving the idea" isn't as solid as the fact that the domain name was renewed.

Keeping in mind that the domain is from Tucows, is most likely a prepaid automatic service. Therefore, as long as the account has some bucks, the domain will be renewed with no intervention from elecbyte. Moreover, even with the domain renewed, there are no facts of elecbyte being alive. Not all facts are what one believe they are. The domain being renewed doesn't imply that elecbyte is alive.

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The one Messatsu posted about?
Which members of the community, BTW? Some quotes of that might help to understand this, especially the bit about "discrediting Elecbyte".

To me, the fact of replacing "elecbyte" by "elecbyte1" and "****byte" (fuckbyte) is enough evidences of discrediting. If that's not discredit for you, then calling you "loonafucka" (motherfucker) shouldn't bother you, right? :P

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We promote Rouhei's version because:

- Credits Elecbyte as the original creators
Pretty much everyone who can tell Mugen itself from "games" made with it knows it's Elecbyte's work, and even Elecbyte1 didn't bother to disguise that.
Several creators' sites still link to Elecbyte.com despite the fact that it doesn't work - it's hard to ignore that they created Mugen.

I don't care about leechers and players that download the characters. They all know that elecbyte made mugen. I care about the games sold at ebay and Hong Kong stores with mugen compilations. Those that buy these games don't have a clue on who made mugen. If they buy a mugen game credited to "Mega enterprise" they will believe that. We cannot stop the selling of such games, thus I prefer at least that the games have a credit to the original creators. However, Loona, seems that your community concept is focused only on forums, while my concept os focused worldwide. As I said, we took the decision of the lesser evil. If you cannot see what's the lesser and what's the greater evil, it's not my fault.

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- mention that if Elecbyte ever returns or requests to stop the distribution, he will stop it. DEV will remove the feedback section and forbid further mentioning/distibution of such version
But now that Dev has decided to openly promote it, anyone who cares the slightest bit about Mugen and doesn't know about this version soon will, and the harm will have been done and impossible to fix...
Consequences of that are already visible, like FlowaGirl's decision to remove the DOS versions of this creations from his site and adding there a link to Rou Hei's site...

That's a complete non-sense and shows your poor understanding of the creator's point of view. Do you believe we wouldn't have stopped public releases of capcom characters' if Capcom did say "no" to our question about using their sprites? And btw, do you really think that Flowa won't bring back his DOS characters if Elecbyte tells not to use winmugen? Flowa will bring back his characters without any hesitation, if that ever happens. Btw, Flowa was one of the creators asked to say his opinion on this before we took the decision, and he agreed with our decission. Do a bit of research next time to want to argue something.

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- Current status of mugen falls on abandonware. It's impossible to get mugen from an official source, there's no official support and many computers cannot run in due to XP issues.
This also applies to the Elecbyte1 version - the only major difference being that more features are unlocked, making it more appealing for things other than testing creations.

Is that difficult to understand for you that while the Elecbyte1 version modified credits adding useless content and flames, Rouhei's version simply unlocks what was there before? Rouhei's didn't add anything extra. All the unloocked modes were already included by elecbyte. Hence rouhei's version is exactly what Elecbyte gave to donators, while elecbyte1's added extra stuff. WE allow RH's version because it keeps Elecbyte's soul in it.

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We have chosen the lesser evil, as I said.
Doesn't the "lesser evil" principle only apply when you're forced into a choice by forces outside you?
You said "DEV was the first one to contact rouhei", so it wasn't a choice, but an initiative - that's forcing a choice to be made here.
At least this time it's not forcing one of the options...

We saw that Rouhei was working on unlocking the character limit. We positively realized that if some guy did it, any one else could do that in only a matter of time. Then, we contacted RH and asked him about the difficulties unlocking the version, and he replied us that actually it was easy, as long you find the right spot. He happened to be the first one to find that out, but he was sure that other crackers will soon it sooner or later. Then, we took the decission of having a supported version, in hopes that once being unlocked, no one else will attempt to do that (and in the meanwhile, add extra stuff or modify elecbyte's credit). We were forced to take a decission in order to save the community and Elecbyte's name in the long run. It hasn't been easy for us, and we took into account every positive/negative factor it could arise with our decission. Also, several creators that counted with the community knowledge and experience were asked to say their opinion. After all that input, a decission was made. I'm sorry if you didn't qualify for that, but there are creators that have been longer in this community than you. Seems that you're angry for not being chosen. Don't blame that on me.
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Re:Way to go Dev >:( =P
#27  July 05, 2004, 11:26:49 PM
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I seriously doubt that Elecbyte will ever be completely forgotten by anyone who knows Mugen, and as for the eventual praising of the likes of Elecbyte1, Dev sure helped RouHei get a lot of attention and vice-versa.
...
It's already not unusual to find Mugen sections in roms/warez sites,not to mention Mugen games on places like eBay - this won't change a thing about that, other than make Mugen an even more popular choice at such places now that it's easier to find a fully functional version of the program for Windows.
...
that's none of a Mugen forum's business unless the individual in question has a directly negative impact on the Mugen community.

That's completely non-sense and I see no relation to what was being discussed here. Check my reason about the ebay/HK stores for more explanation. Also, we cannot stop the distribution of mugen in these places, but at least, we can control that they will be using a version crediting Elecbyte instead of a non-credited elecbyte version.

And btw, it's forum business to ensure that mugen community learns about elecbyte's creation (not elecbyte's creation), promote the use of elecbyte's mugen (not elecbyte1's mugen) and help every new member about elecbyte's mugen (not elecbyte1's version)

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BTW, if you intended the bans in question to be temporary, why didn't you say so back then or resorted to muting, which would have been temporary by default?
Mutings would have been reasonable enough, but you acted like you would have in Dev.

If they were unbanned, then why in the hell are you whining about the banned accounts??? Btw, I was not the only person here in power to ban people at that time. My decission could have been easily overridden by any other staff member and administrators. However, it wasn't. Maybe you must wonder why everybody agreed with that decission of mine, and no one did anything about that until now when you're attacking me with such poor and weak argument.

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Now it's time for some hypothesis.
The Elecbyte1 bans were also based on a hypothesis: that as long as a hack was around Elecbyte wouldn't return.
Changes between now and then? A domain name renewal and a more complete hack.

more complete? it has all the stuff that elecbyte put there, with no estra stuff. Domain name's renewal was explained above. However, elecbyte1 version doesn't credit elecbyte. What do you want? People using a complete unlocked elecbyte1 (or any other name) or people using a complete unlocked elecbyte version? I prefer the latter...

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The WinMugen package is small, under 2 MB zipped - leaving stuff out in betas of more modern games with hundreds of MBs is typical due to download times/server strain, but really not the case with something this small.

LOL, that's probably the most hilarating I've ever read in my life. Take winmugen, remove the game modes and you will end with a storyboard player, like the one Elecbyte gave us to betatest what will be the windows port in the future. Loona, it was possible to give a smaller, limited version of mugen to the donators, but Elecbyte didn't do that. They gave them the full version....

Please, learn about mugen history before trying to argue certain points.

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We only mentioned that official feedback and support is done in DEV, because RouHei is registered there and actually getting that feedback. MFG members can post their feedback here if they want, but RouHei won't get anything from it.
Unless someone sends him links to off-Dev topics where his work is discussed.

So you prefer him to waste time visiting spanish, brazilian, french, italian, esperanto... mugen forums, struggling at bad translations with babelfish and trying to figure it out what people comments about his work, rather than having a single place in english, where he's already registered, where can get hosting for his work in case his site goes down, where he can understand what people posts and etcetera...?

Hooray for making things easier for the poor man.

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The fact that MFG will have to post the feedback in DEV won't steal members from this forum.
There's no concern about stealing of members - especially because Dev took the initiative of banning many of theirs for reasons which weren't always worth it.

Then, what's your concern about? I don't understand you

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Btw, wasn't the idea of this forum to teach their members about ethics of the community and allow them to share them in other communities?
Ask Nunor - the Guild forum was an offspring of the Guild site, like the original Dev spawned from Mugen4ever.

I'm sorry, but you're wrong. Mugen DEV had no relation with M4E. DEV was K3nsh1n's personal forum. K3nsh1n, due to server problems, asked M4E's staff if they could host his forum M4E gave him space in the server as long as they could moderate the forum as well. It's not a springoff, it was just hosting.

Again, do some research...

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In DEV, we mention to our members that requests can be made in MFG.
You don't want requests there at all...

And? Is that a problem to you? Are you concerned about DEV's policy of no requests?? The fact that we don't allow requests doesn't mean that we cannot tell where to get such requests, either by google or by MFG.


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We're still discussing this, looking at it from as many points of view as possible, and trying to come up with a course of action, if any, to deal with this new factor - given the impact that this forum has on the community, this has to be very well thought out before we reach a conclusion.
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Dev's resources are its staff, who contacted Rouhei - seeing as a member of Dev's staff is also part of this staff, it can be said both forums are sharing a resource: you.
Something like this affects all of the community, so you could have brought up the subject here before, but didn't.
Sadly.

The decision by the "veterans", who made up 99% of the team involved with the final decision to promote the hack, did it using experience and a fairly unbaised look towards the possible downsides/upsides of promoting the hack.

Certain members from the staff of this forum don't have such experience/and unbiased look to take this decission (that's not a critic, it's just the truth). And certainly, before taking any decission, it wasn't secure to allow the possibility of leaks or misunderstandings of that critical issue. If you weren't asked personally as a creator/experienced member of the community, then I'm sorry for you. Make more/better creations in the future and you will be asked.

Btw, I'm not the only staff member of this forum that was asked for that decision, and not all of DEV's staff members were included in the decision, sicne they lacked the requested features we wanted.


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After the announcing of our decission, many creators have returned to business.
Who?

To mention a few ones: K3nsh1n, KoYoTae, Sander, HeartBurn Kid... want more?
 
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Re:Way to go Dev >:( =P
#28  July 06, 2004, 12:10:09 AM
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I suppose that there's no question when a person uses stuff from creators that are already available, seems that the problem comes with the creators that are no longer in the scene.

There is no problem, if a creator picks an old character incompatible with the recent versions and updates to make it work, as long as he hasn't add any extra stuff. In other words, if the resulting character is the same as the previous one. The problem is that thieves pick old characters and add crap on them. That's why it's not allowed. Fixing it to make it compatible in newer versions is ok, as long as nothing else is added, and credit is kept ot the original creator.

For the rest of the creations, there is no reason why people shouldn't ask for authorization before using them.

Hsieh's example is a good reference. He made a patch that improved Super Mario. But, he only released the patch, and you still need the original mario to get it to work. I don't see any problem about that.

In the same way, anyone could make a patch for X character that gives the character new features or fixes bugs, as long as he doesn't release the character attached. Palettes are a good example of that. Anyone can make his own palettes and release them, provided they don't put the character from another creator in it.

Rouhei's mugen simply patches and fixes something that is already in the executable. No extra stuff.

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"A character I saw did this cool effect. How was it done?
========================================================

Take note of which states that character was in, and take a look at it
in his `.cns' file. The reason for the open file formats is so that you
can share techniques with other developers."

The FAQ mentions to take note, not copy and paste. It mentioned about sharing techniques, not copying techniques. You can share knowledge so that others can learn from it. But sharing doesn't equals to simply copy. I can share with other members a technique to make an efficient AI routine, but that doesn't allows them to copy exactly my technique, but they can use my technique and do their own using mine as a base. An example in history: Chairman Kaga created the fatality code. Kamek used that as a base and made his own improving it. Kazmer just copied the fatality code, screwing it up in most of the time. Kaga shared his code with Kamek and Kazmer (curiously, all them start with K :P), while Kamek behaved well and make a good use fo the "sharing" concept, Kazmer simply behaved bad and made a bad use of the "sharing" concept. That's why Kamek is a respected creator, while Kazmer not.
 
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Re:Way to go Dev >:( =P
#29  July 06, 2004, 12:45:04 AM
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First of all, Loona, I don't know if you have a grudge against me, DEV, or a certain member in DEV's staff, and keep arguing because of that. My apologies if that's not true, but it's the only idea one can get from your messages.

My problem is basically with the bans you applied here without warning when posts were made regarding the Elecbyte1 version - back then Nunor had already left pretty clear he'd want to be consulted on such matters beforehand, and there were plenty of alternative courses of action, as mentioned before.

Upon arriving to the forum and seeing what you did, I found myself with a choice to make - either make the bans a standard procedure on such cases, adjusting the forum's rules for that, making your actions more understandable, or removing you from the staff for taking matters into your own hands contrary to orientations given to the staff, and completely nullifying a decision made by a staff memeber, making things rather insconsistent in the way this forum handles matters.

I ended up choosing to make an emergency change to the rules, and the removal of banning rights to GMs that soon followed made sue at least something just like that wouldn't happen again... it made things easier, but it was still a hard situation to find myself in on such a short notice, forced upon in such a manner.

That was the past, but these recents developments made it worse, since both times (one of the members of the) Dev staff placed this forum in a difficult position.

I've always respected you, if I didn't always agree with your attitudes on some matters, but this doesn't make things any easier...

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Let's discuss your reply, since there are several points which are either non-sense or contradicted by yourself:

I had to leave a lot of stuff out in order to be able to post - I actually ended up spending more time choosing parts of the text to remove in order for the forum to accept the reply than actually writing the original reply - that, along with the late hours and the fact that I'm supposed to be studying for a couple of exams and some ignorance on some details didsn't really help... I'll try to keep an untouched original copy of the reply and simply try to post different section of it if the forum won't accept the whole thing... it'd really help if there was some mention of how big a reply can be to be accepted...

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We did not promote the elecbyte1 version because:
- there was no mention of Elecbyte credited as the original creator.
"Elecbyte1"
"Whiners In Numbers May Ultimately Get Elecbyte Nixed"
"Elecbyte1 isn't Elecbyte"

So, in your wisdom, this is credit.

It's not credit, but it's not like the name was completely left out on purpose.

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The one Messatsu posted about?
Which members of the community, BTW? Some quotes of that might help to understand this, especially the bit about "discrediting Elecbyte".

To me, the fact of replacing "elecbyte" by "elecbyte1" and "****byte" (fuckbyte) is enough evidences of discrediting. If that's not discredit for you, then calling you "loonafucka" (motherfucker) shouldn't bother you, right? :P

I didn't try the thing on my computer, so I didn't know exactly what was written there, which is why I asked - back when Messatsu made the topic I simply locked it once I saw the site it was linking to, and what little credibility it had.

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We promote Rouhei's version because:

- Credits Elecbyte as the original creators
Pretty much everyone who can tell Mugen itself from "games" made with it knows it's Elecbyte's work, and even Elecbyte1 didn't bother to disguise that.
Several creators' sites still link to Elecbyte.com despite the fact that it doesn't work - it's hard to ignore that they created Mugen.

I don't care about leechers and players that download the characters. They all know that elecbyte made mugen. I care about the games sold at ebay and Hong Kong stores with mugen compilations. Those that buy these games don't have a clue on who made mugen. If they buy a mugen game credited to "Mega enterprise" they will believe that. We cannot stop the selling of such games, thus I prefer at least that the games have a credit to the original creators. However, Loona, seems that your community concept is focused only on forums, while my concept os focused worldwide. As I said, we took the decision of the lesser evil. If you cannot see what's the lesser and what's the greater evil, it's not my fault.

My take on it is that there's little to nothing we can do about eBay and Hong-Kong stores - we can, however, affect forums and related corners of the community, so that's invariably where the focus goes when taking decisions.

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- mention that if Elecbyte ever returns or requests to stop the distribution, he will stop it. DEV will remove the feedback section and forbid further mentioning/distibution of such version
But now that Dev has decided to openly promote it, anyone who cares the slightest bit about Mugen and doesn't know about this version soon will, and the harm will have been done and impossible to fix...
Consequences of that are already visible, like FlowaGirl's decision to remove the DOS versions of this creations from his site and adding there a link to Rou Hei's site...

That's a complete non-sense and shows your poor understanding of the creator's point of view. Do you believe we wouldn't have stopped public releases of capcom characters' if Capcom did say "no" to our question about using their sprites?

That might have been the end of the Capcom section in EZboard Dev, but it wouldn't keep people from making Capcom characters or finding them at places like Charasoon...

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- Current status of mugen falls on abandonware. It's impossible to get mugen from an official source, there's no official support and many computers cannot run in due to XP issues.
This also applies to the Elecbyte1 version - the only major difference being that more features are unlocked, making it more appealing for things other than testing creations.

Is that difficult to understand for you that while the Elecbyte1 version modified credits adding useless content and flames, Rouhei's version simply unlocks what was there before? Rouhei's didn't add anything extra. All the unloocked modes were already included by elecbyte. Hence rouhei's version is exactly what Elecbyte gave to donators, while elecbyte1's added extra stuff. WE allow RH's version because it keeps Elecbyte's soul in it.

What I meant is that from a user's point of view, you can do more with Rou Hei's version than you could with Elecbyte1's version... surely it can't be that hard to understand...

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We have chosen the lesser evil, as I said.
Doesn't the "lesser evil" principle only apply when you're forced into a choice by forces outside you?
You said "DEV was the first one to contact rouhei", so it wasn't a choice, but an initiative - that's forcing a choice to be made here.
At least this time it's not forcing one of the options...

We saw that Rouhei was working on unlocking the character limit. We positively realized that if some guy did it, any one else could do that in only a matter of time. Then, we contacted RH and asked him about the difficulties unlocking the version, and he replied us that actually it was easy, as long you find the right spot. He happened to be the first one to find that out, but he was sure that other crackers will soon it sooner or later. Then, we took the decission of having a supported version, in hopes that once being unlocked, no one else will attempt to do that (and in the meanwhile, add extra stuff or modify elecbyte's credit). We were forced to take a decission in order to save the community and Elecbyte's name in the long run. It hasn't been easy for us, and we took into account every positive/negative factor it could arise with our decission. Also, several creators that counted with the community knowledge and experience were asked to say their opinion. After all that input, a decission was made. I'm sorry if you didn't qualify for that, but there are creators that have been longer in this community than you. Seems that you're angry for not being chosen. Don't blame that on me.

I have no problem admitting that I arrived on the community some time after the Silent Storm events, and that apparently seniority was a criteria used for choosing people to discuss this.
I also have no major problem with Rou Hei's work, especially when compared to Elecbyte1's.

It's bothers me at least a little, however, that plans to "save the community and Elecbyte's name" apparently should only be a concern of this forum when it involves decising to ban people, since I think it's pretty safe to say that the amount of people that frequent this forum make it a factor to take into consideration.

So now we have to take a decision on this AFTER Dev took matters into its own hands on a couple of ralated issues without even asking us first - it might have been better if such decisions could have been taken together, making it easier on everybody to reach a consensual solution.
Re:Way to go Dev >:( =P
#30  July 06, 2004, 01:14:30 AM
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We only mentioned that official feedback and support is done in DEV, because RouHei is registered there and actually getting that feedback. MFG members can post their feedback here if they want, but RouHei won't get anything from it.
Unless someone sends him links to off-Dev topics where his work is discussed.

So you prefer him to waste time visiting spanish, brazilian, french, italian, esperanto... mugen forums, struggling at bad translations with babelfish and trying to figure it out what people comments about his work, rather than having a single place in english, where he's already registered, where can get hosting for his work in case his site goes down, where he can understand what people posts and etcetera...?

The way you said could almost make one believe that there are no more english forums, and that all forums require registration for you to read them... BTW, it'd be interesting to check out that Esperanto Mugen forum... link please?... :P

What I was considering here was the simple possibility that, should WinMugen hacks become an acceptable topic of discussion over here, it'll still be impossible to force people to comment on Rou Hei's at Dev, so in case someone actually mention something relevant here, sending him a link to the topic where that happened could be a possibilty, in case nobody mentions that comment (or its origin) at Dev.

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The fact that MFG will have to post the feedback in DEV won't steal members from this forum.
There's no concern about stealing of members - especially because Dev took the initiative of banning many of theirs for reasons which weren't always worth it.

Then, what's your concern about? I don't understand you

I'm the one who doesn't understand why you came up with this silly talk of stealing members, but let's move on to other things...

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Btw, wasn't the idea of this forum to teach their members about ethics of the community and allow them to share them in other communities?
Ask Nunor - the Guild forum was an offspring of the Guild site, like the original Dev spawned from Mugen4ever.

I'm sorry, but you're wrong. Mugen DEV had no relation with M4E. DEV was K3nsh1n's personal forum. K3nsh1n, due to server problems, asked M4E's staff if they could host his forum M4E gave him space in the server as long as they could moderate the forum as well. It's not a springoff, it was just hosting.

I take it that was before Dev moved to EZboard then?... Because that's where I found it, thanks to the link at M4E, which was linked to from TESTP, which was linked to from Elecbyte.com at the time...

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In DEV, we mention to our members that requests can be made in MFG.
You don't want requests there at all...

And? Is that a problem to you? Are you concerned about DEV's policy of no requests?? The fact that we don't allow requests doesn't mean that we cannot tell where to get such requests, either by google or by MFG.

I'm simply saying it's rather different having a link to this forum if you don't want requests there than it would be for us to have a link to Dev's WinMugen section while this discussion is still taking place.

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We're still discussing this, looking at it from as many points of view as possible, and trying to come up with a course of action, if any, to deal with this new factor - given the impact that this forum has on the community, this has to be very well thought out before we reach a conclusion.
...
Dev's resources are its staff, who contacted Rouhei - seeing as a member of Dev's staff is also part of this staff, it can be said both forums are sharing a resource: you.
Something like this affects all of the community, so you could have brought up the subject here before, but didn't.
Sadly.

The decision by the "veterans", who made up 99% of the team involved with the final decision to promote the hack, did it using experience and a fairly unbaised look towards the possible downsides/upsides of promoting the hack.

Certain members from the staff of this forum don't have such experience/and unbiased look to take this decission (that's not a critic, it's just the truth). And certainly, before taking any decission, it wasn't secure to allow the possibility of leaks or misunderstandings of that critical issue. If you weren't asked personally as a creator/experienced member of the community, then I'm sorry for you. Make more/better creations in the future and you will be asked.

Not all of the staff members have a saying on wha this forum allows or not - if you didn't trust all, you could at least have contacted those/some who, unless you think you can affect the future of the community without involving the hundreds of people who frequent this forum that don't go to Dev - as it seems to be the case.

As for my puny Mugen creation count, sorry about that - I've been busy helping to babysit the barbarians at MGBR and over here when offline life doesn't give me other things to do.
Re:Way to go Dev >:( =P
#31  July 06, 2004, 01:49:28 AM
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There is no problem, if a creator picks an old character incompatible with the recent versions and updates to make it work, as long as he hasn't add any extra stuff.

I do believe there have been problems in the past when people have tried to make available to the public fixed versions of characters made for older versions of DOS Mugen...

And there are cases when all that's left are incomplete betas that looked very promising, but will most likely never be completed because the creator has left - if credit is given should someone try to complete and release the character, it wouldn't be that different from what Rou Hei did with WinMugen...

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In other words, if the resulting character is the same as the previous one. The problem is that thieves pick old characters and add crap on them. That's why it's not allowed. Fixing it to make it compatible in newer versions is ok, as long as nothing else is added, and credit is kept ot the original creator.

Does that "nothing else" also include things like required sprites/animations or other stuff that's clearly missing from the creation?...

And stuff that's added might not always be crap...
Evil Ken and the original Dark Chun-Li could be examples of this up to a certain point, since the possibility Reu and Eli had to contact Tenshin and Angel Myst, a possibility other people may not have to contact other creators, in no way affected their ability to build something quite decent from a complete character base...

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Hsieh's example is a good reference. He made a patch that improved Super Mario. But, he only released the patch, and you still need the original mario to get it to work. I don't see any problem about that.

Other than the DEF (which can be easily put together given the list of files the patch includes), the only file not included in the patch is the one that corresponds to the "stcommon" field... I didn't test it so far, but I can't help but wonder if the character would still be functional if that field was ommited...
It seems like a rather borderline situation, so I felt it'd be relevant to mention it...

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In the same way, anyone could make a patch for X character that gives the character new features or fixes bugs, as long as he doesn't release the character attached. Palettes are a good example of that. Anyone can make his own palettes and release them, provided they don't put the character from another creator in it.

I know all too well about the palletes issues, but there are cases (not that different from Hsieh's, bar the "stcommon" file detail) where the only way to give a character new features is to change every file, indeed allowing everyone to use it by putting together a Def file, bypassing the use of the original character.
I take that'd be alright then, if credit was given where it's due?...

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Rouhei's mugen simply patches and fixes something that is already in the executable. No extra stuff.

... other than a lot of other things from the beta that he didn't change but still distributed, because none of it is available anymore through the original source.
Re:Way to go Dev >:( =P
#32  July 06, 2004, 03:19:05 AM
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I managed to read all of XG's posts but I (no offense) couldn't last through 3 more long posts.

I still think the ban should be enforced if anyone promotes the elecbyte1 hack. I didn't think so because it was a hack but for the sole reason that it was something Elecbyte obviously did not feel like releasing to everyone.

I would have rather Dev only give access to this board to people it trusted at least. Seniority and respect values. It feels very wrong to just flaunt this beta out like it is just some program that will make it easier for people to create on XP. In fact out of all the people in the community it was XG's influence that built my ethics into what it is today.

I remember we clashed on all sorts of things back when I was new. But I never detested that, I looked and read what he was saying... trying to find that emotion in myself to see from that point.

The one thing that above all else is sacred for this community is Elecbyte. And something that I learned is no matter how much easier a certain shortcut makes things it is best to work with what you have at your disposal. It just seems that we are taking something from Elecbyte just to make it easier for some people. Not really caring if it does hurt them more or not.

If it is not broke why fix it? The linux version has more features and there are many ways to get Linux beside any other OS.

But that is past issues. What is done is done. The cascade has already begun and as much as some may not have liked we cannot be mad at XG (or Dev) for this.

We all make mistakes and succumb to certain temptations. I believe that XG thought and possibly still thinks his choice was the right one. Just as I thought it was the right thing to try to reason with BJ via emails which have seemed to made things just that much more complecated :-\

If we are too be angry at anyone it is whomever is responsible for the initial elecbyte1 release. This situation would not have arised without that. And as for the bannings XG administered at the time, it was a reflex action.

"Great Scott! Some idiots are posting the beta hack of WinMugen!!! What do we do? This isn't suppossed to be publisized! This is a huge travesty to Elecbyte and the community!!!"

I picture that is somewhat along the lines of most that understood what was happening when they 1st saw it. I know I did. The emotion of the shock of seeing the link here (moderatiately speaking in your own back yard) Then the anger geared towards the one celebrating this. Seeing as it is something noone here was prepared for banning was the best option for something so severe.

Now months later the idea of the leak has settled more. XG on many occasions seems to have accepted that he did infact overreact a bit. So what to do next? Let a silent and underground community form around the hack itself?Or go with the original beta again and try to deteer(sp) people away from tinkering with the hack?

I can see the logic in the choices that were made. And again with the reasoning to the length of this whole topic... most of us here in this staff were yet again not prepared for this. A huge shock to see followed with an emotional attachment to what has happened here in the past and Elecbyte itself.

I think the only thing XG himself really did wrong was not trusting us to at least help us prepare for this. Dev is an intricate part of the community. So much so I rarely post there because I honestly do not feel worthy yet. As much as I help and and thankful to all those that respect me for that I still have not payed my dues enough to be a regular at Dev.

So instead of all this petty debating on things that we cannot change, we should go back to where my original intent of this topic was suppossed to lead.

What do we do? I did not ask if it was right or not.
I feel this is just something we have to accept with teeth gritted. <--- right word? clamped be a better word? :P

I think we should either add a sticky to this area of Dev, or make an area for it here too. If a board was here it would be primarily for posting the history and stressing the importance of Elecbyte. We could use the board to post updates to the beta as we do releases. And the feedback section would still be a link to Dev. Only admins and moderators and special members could post to add the updates. And we could move the Elecbyte support thread there as well.
In fact I think a board like that would be the best course of action.

As much as I don't like seeing the beta being publisized like this everyone still has there own free choice to make on the ethics on whether to use this or not. And I hate how it is tearing apart this forum which I have called home for so long.

Let us press on together again. I still belive Elecbyte will come back. This really changed nothing with that aspect, nothing new is proven that they will not return because of this and nothing was proven that they will. I do wish you would be a bit more optimistic for there return though XG :P

EDIT: Yes I say some things that may contridict myself, remember I am speaking from two sides. I argue to myself like this in real life too =P
Last Edit: July 06, 2004, 03:21:32 AM by The Dreamslayer
Re:Way to go Dev >:( =P
#33  July 06, 2004, 04:57:06 AM
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I managed to read all of XG's posts but I (no offense) couldn't last through 3 more long posts.

OK then, get some rest and do it later... :P

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I still think the ban should be enforced if anyone promotes the elecbyte1 hack. I didn't think so because it was a hack but for the sole reason that it was something Elecbyte obviously did not feel like releasing to everyone.

The penalty hasn't been a ban in quite some time - but considering the elecbyte1 hack is much inferior to the Rou Hei one, no one will care about it anyway the this more recent one is mentioned, which is why a likely possibility is the simple removal or the WinMugen hack rule, because from then on "natural selection" takes over, as seen on MGBR when everyone knew of Elecbyte1's version and rejected it due to its restrictions.

That's my current view on it, as I feel it wouldn't be reasonable to have a special rule just for Rou Hei's version, even if we end up creating a Sticky topic about it in Mugen Discussion or/and Announcements.

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The one thing that above all else is sacred for this community is Elecbyte. And something that I learned is no matter how much easier a certain shortcut makes things it is best to work with what you have at your disposal. It just seems that we are taking something from Elecbyte just to make it easier for some people. Not really caring if it does hurt them more or not.

Which is why I'm concerned about the domain name renewal factor - even if the renewal was automated, that's only a possibility, and I know of no way to confirm or refute it...

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If we are too be angry at anyone it is whomever is responsible for the initial elecbyte1 release. This situation would not have arised without that. And as for the bannings XG administered at the time, it was a reflex action.

"Great Scott! Some idiots are posting the beta hack of WinMugen!!! What do we do? This isn't suppossed to be publisized! This is a huge travesty to Elecbyte and the community!!!"

I picture that is somewhat along the lines of most that understood what was happening when they 1st saw it. I know I did. The emotion of the shock of seeing the link here (moderatiately speaking in your own back yard) Then the anger geared towards the one celebrating this. Seeing as it is something noone here was prepared for banning was the best option for something so severe.

Considering XG and a few others already knew of the thing before it came up in the forum, I expect the shock wasn't that great, and he was prepared up to a certain point... which is why I'm dissapointed at the Dev-like "reflex action" instead of an alternative attitude that'd be within this forum's previously defined courses of action... but that's the past and it was dealt with...

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Now months later the idea of the leak has settled more. XG on many occasions seems to have accepted that he did infact overreact a bit. So what to do next? Let a silent and underground community form around the hack itself?Or go with the original beta again and try to deteer(sp) people away from tinkering with the hack?

If you're referring to the Elecbyte1 hack, its use has been mostly creation testing... can't do much more with that, let alone form an underground community around it...

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I think the only thing XG himself really did wrong was not trusting us to at least help us prepare for this. Dev is an intricate part of the community. So much so I rarely post there because I honestly do not feel worthy yet. As much as I help and and thankful to all those that respect me for that I still have not payed my dues enough to be a regular at Dev.

That never stopped quite a few... tread carefully and you'll be fine :P

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I think we should either add a sticky to this area of Dev, or make an area for it here too. If a board was here it would be primarily for posting the history and stressing the importance of Elecbyte. We could use the board to post updates to the beta as we do releases. And the feedback section would still be a link to Dev. Only admins and moderators and special members could post to add the updates. And we could move the Elecbyte support thread there as well.
In fact I think a board like that would be the best course of action.

A Sticky topic would be sufficient - a new section would not only require Nunor's approval to be created, it'd also split Rou Hei's attention (although he wouldn't have to register and/or login to read it here if there was one...).

Already at the Blargh-net forums, where a Sticky was created with a reference to Rou Hei's hack and Dev's section Pextin, a creator who's been around for a while, created a topic to comment on a problem with the hack - we can most likely expect a few here too if we do something like that...
Creating a section just for it would only encourage it more, which may not necessarily be a good thing...
Re:Way to go Dev >:( =P
#34  July 06, 2004, 05:54:06 AM
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I still think the ban should be enforced if anyone promotes the elecbyte1 hack. I didn't think so because it was a hack but for the sole reason that it was something Elecbyte obviously did not feel like releasing to everyone.
The point of that statement was to be that I still feel the betas are the worst thing that can be encouraged in the forum. Including the version at hand. Then below that statement I was trying to say why I accept the fact that it is not the penalty. Sorry I did not word that well.

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If you're referring to the Elecbyte1 hack, its use has been mostly creation testing... can't do much more with that, let alone form an underground community around it...
No more like that would be the version that people would begin to hack/patch/update whatever word you wish to choose. Another lack of explaining on my part apparently :P That is why I figured it would get it's own following.

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That never stopped quite a few... tread carefully and you'll be fine  :P
I am not worried about being banned. I think I would fit quite well there. But as you know I do not yet classify myself as a Developer.

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Already at the Blargh-net forums, where a Sticky was created with a reference to Rou Hei's hack and Dev's section Pextin, a creator who's been around for a while, created a topic to comment on a problem with the hack - we can most likely expect a few here too if we do something like that...
Creating a section just for it would only encourage it more, which may not necessarily be a good thing...
That is why only mods and other special people can reply. And the feedback link would lead to Dev.

But a sticky would work too :P

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I do believe there have been problems in the past when people have tried to make available to the public fixed versions of characters made for older versions of DOS Mugen...
Yup Gohan and Electrocaid did that. The community was outraged  >:(  :P

The reason I posted most of what I did was because I think this is drawing out too much and I don't think there is anything this forum can do to change Dev's mind now.

I totally disagree with there approach on this too but I think it is just causing uncomfortable vibes within the staff to let this continue.

We could just limit the talk of it to creations created for it as well. We could keep our rules the same and outlaw speaking of this here too. Although not to the extent we have in the past obviously or many Dev admins would be muted untill it was removed :P

My last idea is we wait on whatever Winane was going to do before we concrete anything.

Anyway whatever happens happens now. This debate could go on forever, but I hope not.
Re:Way to go Dev >:( =P
#35  July 06, 2004, 06:21:26 AM
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I do believe there have been problems in the past when people have tried to make available to the public fixed versions of characters made for older versions of DOS Mugen...
Yup Gohan and Electrocaid did that. The community was outraged  >:(  :P

I remember that case, but since I don't remember if they only hosted fixed character or if they also had uploaded character that didn't require any fixing, I'm not completely sure that situation qualified - people have been very annoyed at both of them for a very long time for very different reasons, so getting the chance to call them thieves is an opportunity many wouldn't miss - so the validity of that may hang on details that are tricky to confirm nowadays...

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We could just limit the talk of it to creations created for it as well. We could keep our rules the same and outlaw speaking of this here too. Although not to the extent we have in the past obviously or many Dev admins would be muted untill it was removed :P

There'd still be a problem if such a release was made and inevitably people complained that they couldn't get the creation to run - I'd be impossible to give a solution to that problem without mentioning the hack...

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My last idea is we wait on whatever Winane was going to do before we concrete anything.

I'm inclined to agree - the tricky part is that that'll apparently last as long as my exam season... >_<
Re:Way to go Dev >:( =P
#36  July 06, 2004, 04:01:24 PM
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So far I haven't found the power to read through all this quoteanswerquotepost action.

Traitor is full of most interesting and thought-provoking stuff, regardless of it having "Star Wars" in the title. It is a Matthew Woodring Stover book, and one of his best. Perfectly self-cotained, despite being numer 13 in a series, it is at the same time the "darkest" and most brilliant Star Wars book ever written. Though that last part's not saying much. XD


Note: Guild and Dev share two "ressources", since before the "harm" had been done.


Having said that, I give you . . . the beginning, uncut:

Code:
Session Start: Sun Jun 20 19:07:03 2004
[19:07] <[Rolento]> It has been broken.
[19:07] <[Rolento]> The select screen has 3 people on it.
[19:13] <[Sepp]> Do we cry or celebrate now?
[19:14] <[Rolento]> We wait for now.
[19:14] <[Rolento]> Although I am suspicious of something here.
[19:16] <[Rolento]> Along with the altered form of the hacked mugen came a file simply known as ~
[19:17] <[Sepp]> Heh.
[19:17] <[Rolento]> I deleted it immediately just in case, but it was rather large. Scanned just after and found no viruses, but recommended to those that do get it to remove as quickly as possible.
[19:18] <[Sepp]> Haha, so it had nothing to do with the MUGEN version?
[19:19] <[Rolento]> I'd assume not.
[19:20] <[Rolento]> A text file exists in the archive that explains the hacker's intentions.
[19:21] <[Rolento]> And even gives an e-mail, which I question.
[19:21] <[Rolento]> 2 separate exes exist, one with debug text removed, the other with it still intact
[19:22] <[Sepp]> I hope it's not the "hacker" I know.
[19:22] <[Rolento]> Is he japanese? :P
[19:22] <[Sepp]> Not at all.
[19:22] <[Rolento]> Then no.
[19:23] <[Rolento]> "rouhei" is the name given.
[19:23] <[Sepp]> At least something.
[19:24] <[Rolento]> rouhei june 10 2004
[19:24] <[Rolento]> roh_hei@yahoo.co.jp
[19:24] <[Rolento]> http://www.attic7.com/unofficial/
[19:24] <[Rolento]> He gives a lot of information here. Be wary if you check.
[19:25] <[Rolento]> if you want stop of release to public , please send
[19:25] <[Rolento]> your view to roh_hei@yahoo.co.jp .
[19:25] <[Rolento]> I will read it seriously & think & send reply to you.
[19:28] <[Sepp]> It was only a matter of time. Good thing it was him and not someone else.
[19:28] <[Sepp]> BRB
[19:28] <[Rolento]> Ok.
[19:49] <[Sepp]> Baaack.
[19:50] <[Sepp]> Well, japanese guy _could_ have included only the files he modified instead of everything. But okay, he wants to spread the love, so he uploaded the whole package.
[19:51] <[Rolento]> You went to the site.
[19:51] <[Sepp]> Yes.
[19:52] * [Sepp] reads.
[19:55] <[Sepp]> That fix file is for people who already have WinMUGEN I assume?
[19:58] <[Rolento]> The one I was linked to had the whole thing in it.
[19:58] <[Rolento]> I'm not sure which is which, or what the second one is.
[19:58] <[Sepp]> The full one is the first. FIX seems to be a kind of UPDATER.
[19:59] <[Sepp]> Bleh. So he removed the debug font from the font file. Rather unsophisticated.
[20:01] <[Rolento]> If it works, it works.
[20:03] <[Sepp]> It sucks because you cannot use Debug at all that way. Well, for Debug he's included the other .exe. Okay.
[20:05] <[Sepp]> One thing... which WinMUGEN version is that based on? Hmmm...
[20:05] <[Rolento]> Hacked version.
[20:05] <[Sepp]> Just checked... right.
[20:05] <[Sepp]> Oh well.
[20:07] <[Sepp]> I had no ~ file anywhere in there, btw.
[20:07] <[Rolento]> Strange.
[20:07] <[Rolento]> I found it outside myself.
[20:08] <[Sepp]> Mh.
[20:08] <[Sepp]> Who found the page?
[20:08] <[Rolento]> Herman, but he doesn't need to know that you are aware.
[20:08] <[Rolento]> Actually, make that a friend of Herman.
[20:09] <[Sepp]> It's b een 10 days.
[20:12] <[Sepp]> I'd been thinkign exactly about what ShoShingo then posted on MS a few weeks ago. And what, basically, this japanese guy has done now.
[20:13] <[Rolento]> Indeed.
[20:13] <[Sepp]> Except that I would go one step further. Like, the Story of Elecbyte and WinMUGEN as we know it.
[20:20] <[Rolento]> Hmm.
[20:33] <[Rolento]> Probably the only way to properly display the history of it would to refer to a few people that want no part of it.
[20:41] <[Sepp]> back again. >_<
[20:42] <[Sepp]> No need for names.
[20:44] <[Rolento]> I wonder why whenever something is either private or strange, at least one person asks me if I know something about it.
[20:44] <[Sepp]> Haha.
[20:52] <[Rolento]> I can't even remember how the sound plugins are supposed to work for the music.
[20:53] <[Sepp]> I don't care much about them. Currently, I care about what "we" will do.
[20:55] <[Rolento]> A few options exist.
[20:56] <[Rolento]> 1. Try to reason with him to remove the site. Can't hedge bet on Elecbyte coming back, as that is unlikely at this point. Alternative argument needed.
[20:56] <[Sepp]> I had been thinking about posting, pre-faced with something like "This is the best we know, according many trusted sources, most of which will remain unnamed for obvious reasons."     .... no idea, something. A big post through one account, checked by some "insiders" before posting.
[20:57] <[Rolento]> 2. Shut down the site by force. Illegal software is illegal software.
[20:59] <[Rolento]> 3. Stand by and do nothing.
[20:59] <[Sepp]> Futile, 2. We cannot hope to win. We can only slow "it" down.
[20:59] <[Sepp]> Some goes for 1.
[20:59] <[Sepp]> It's been 10 days.
[21:00] <[Rolento]> Guild and Dev are set up so that any postings of this will be shut down.
[21:00] <[Rolento]> Mgbr would also likely shoot this down at this point.
[21:01] <[Sepp]> The number 1 reason for this, as Sho pointed out, was Elecbyte. Is it still?
[21:02] <[Rolento]> That's why I said alternative.
[21:03] <[Sepp]> Is there another one? If the Elecbyte argument breaks down, that's it.
[21:06] <[Rolento]> Hmm.
[21:06] <[Rolento]> Sadly, I cannot think of one.
[21:08] <[Sepp]> Looking at it another way would produce the opposite of "Sadly."
[21:09] <[Sepp]> WinMUGEN for everyone, and unlimited? "Hurray."
[21:10] <[Rolento]> Still same disabled modes, music issues, and the "fatal flaw" which is still unknown.
[21:10] <[Sepp]> Flaw?
[21:10] <[Sepp]> What's that? (didn't acutally test this version much)
[21:10] <[Rolento]> "fatal flaw" which is still unknown. <--- :P
[21:10] <[Sepp]> o_O
[21:10] <[Sepp]> A joke? :x
[21:11] <[Rolento]> Whatever stalled programming for Elecbyte, assuming a problem really did exist.
[21:12] <[Sepp]> That. Chances are it was an external problem, but yeah.
[21:13] <[Sepp]> It's not on me to decide anything anyway.
[21:13] <[Sepp]> This would need to be discussed by more than 2 people.
[21:13] <[Rolento]> Actually, a 4th option exists.
[21:13] <[Rolento]> Allow it, but control it.
[21:14] <[Sepp]> Controlling the Internet?
[21:14] <[Rolento]> No. Control this hack.
[21:14] <[Sepp]> I still don't understand. :)
[21:15] <[Rolento]> Personally deal with Rou Hei, and we work something out about this hack.
[21:16] <[Sepp]> I see.
[21:18] <[Sepp]> This could be and probably should done. Making that Story post, and including it everywhere possible.
[21:18] <[Sepp]> Rou thinks it was released in August 03.
[21:18] <[Rolento]> I'd want it controlled 1st.
[21:18] <[Sepp]> I meant that.
[21:19] <[Rolento]> Then I guess someone should contact him.
[21:19] <[Sepp]> Get as much of that "inner circle" together as possible and neccessary.
[21:19] <[Sepp]> 2. write up the Story
[21:19] <[Sepp]> 3. check it with said circle
[21:19] <[Sepp]> 4. contact rou with it
[21:20] <[Sepp]> ~
[21:20] <[Sepp]> 5. contact everyone else?
[21:20] <[Rolento]> Questionable on that last one.
[21:21] <[Sepp]> Question remains, of why. Because we're all gotten accustomed to being elitist bitches?
[21:21] <[Rolento]> In a word, yes.
[21:21] <[Sepp]> Fair enough.
[21:22] <[Rolento]> This conversation itself attests to that. :P
[21:22] <[Sepp]> From a certain point of view. :D
[21:22] <[Sepp]> Alrgiht. Get going. Who's Inner Circle?
[21:22] <[Rolento]> I'll worry about that. :P
[21:23] <[Sepp]> And what, write a list?
[21:23] <[Rolento]> More like gather the people.
[21:24] <[Sepp]> How direct~!

More info and consideration of what had been posted before this post to come in next post, once I can summon the strength.
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Re: HighWay to Dev >:( =P
#37  July 06, 2004, 06:04:14 PM
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In the months before, I had been contacted unregularily (or had contacted myself) by a friend of mine who was working on hacking his way around the limitations of the Elecbyte1 hack. He is always looking for ways to attract users to his page, and that seemed quite promising, if successful. I could merely prevent him from releasing the 1 hack.

He knows his way around the Net and had pointed out that japanese pages were having a working WinMUGEN hack up (the 1) for download, even before the banning spree here and elsewhere occured, warning us of what would come.

Anyway, back to the 20th of June, where I contacted him shortly after the above chat sessions. He always kinda exaggerates, y'know "2 days, 2 weeks, 2 months, never", and this time he said he was getting closer. He had been able to push the limit up to 9 characters; the same thing had been done on some Japanese page, according to him.

I trust him so far that I don't believe he was making that up, and so we had more hackers closing in on the limit, and one already out. That's the reference to "stopping" them.

Expectation had it that once this no limit leaked through to MGBR, well, nothing pretty would occur.

Turned out that was not the case. Okay, everyone now uses it, but it is not "supported". Same as with the 1 hack.

There was nothing FORCED. Nobody HAD to do anything.

The most efficient way was Dev (and Blargh). Assumption was that MGBR anyway and also Guild would follow suite.

Need for efficiency was there because we wanted to do this BEFORE it leaked through unaltered.

Clearly MGBR would not qualify as efficient - but nor would Guild.

Winane was contacted, but his "I'll try to talk to someone I think was part of Elecbyte . . . next weekend, or the weekend afer that, or . . ." was ignored as we wanted to make haste.

It still took ages until finally someone sat down and actually DID something, like writing some e-mail or organizing anythig.

Going to Guild with it was out of question. Contacting members not, but was not really done either, right.

Of all the people that were contacted, all agreed, one did not care, and Winane, who did not post yes or no as I recall, but I'm not sure.

Still, that left 10+ guys (sorry, lost track) in agreement with this. By now, that number is obviously higher. A lot.


Dreamslayer:

Great point. Personally, I had my shock moment when the 1 hack spread - as had many others.

I had started thinking about how to deal with the 1 hack in the future some time ago, because I had actually considered it as an example of problematic moral/ethic decissions in one of my final school exams. Anyway.


Forum politics aside, what is the earlier mentioned "harm"?

WinMUGE for everyone, and unlimited. Why not? I know I would of used it anyway. Wouldn't you have, had you been aware of it?

What is the harm in "officially" using it?

The people who agreed with this before announcing it were mostly old creators. Are you accusing them of disrespecting Elecbyte? Do you really think this it what happened? We dropped our respect?

Then your "patience" is greater than ours.

Some months ago, I could not have imagined "losing hope" or something. We don't know for a fact that Elecbyte is dead; but they are certainly not present, and have not been for a long time.

And that, I think, is essentially the only valuable point and question we could clearly see (apart from the background of the illegal):

Whether Elecbyte might still be around despite everything, or might soon be again.

Amazingly, the overwhelming feeling towards this was an almost certain No. And all that felt worth taking the risk.


And that's it.


And in all these posts, especially the newer ones, I cannot see any other intelligent point concerning the core question. It's petty board politics, and It Was That Way - No Not At All, You Lose - But You Blah. [The second being especially painful to read.]

That's what I meant you should try to avoid here.

"Justification" and pointless Right About This Point,  Wrong About That One discussions.


We were and are convinced we did the Right Thing, as "illegal" as it might be. If you are convinced we did the Wrong Thing, that's okay. But both positions would have a hard time standing up in court, seeing how we don't have real fact- or law-based arguments.


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"Sith? Jedi?" she said. "Are these the only choices? Dark or light, good or evil? Is there no more to the Force than this? What is the screen on which light and dark cast their shapes and shadows? Where is the ground on which stands good and evil?"
"Several times now, Achamian thought he had glimpsed golden haloes about Kellhus's hands. He found himself envying those, such as Proyas, who claimed to see them all the time."
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Last Edit: July 06, 2004, 06:11:39 PM by Sepp
Re:Way to go Dev >:( =P
#38  July 06, 2004, 06:29:47 PM
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We were and are convinced we did the Right Thing, as "illegal" as it might be. If you are convinced we did the Wrong Thing, that's okay. But both positions would have a hard time standing up in court, seeing how we don't have real fact- and law-based arguments and you apparently neither.
This sums up the ethic and moral implecations very well.

At least it is in an area that makes sure to remind us all of it's roots... Elecbyte.

@ XG: Would it be possible to add one more sticky to Dev's WinMugen board?

An homage to Elecbyte. Starting off with a history as we know it. And then closing with how much they mean to the community.

Maybe even leave it open so others can thank them.

I posted more but I didn't copy it and had an error >:(
Re:Way to go Dev >:( =P
#39  July 07, 2004, 12:26:18 PM
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I believe there's no more point in keeping an argument alive. All topics have been exposed and there's anything else to add.

Also, I don't want this staff splitting up in factions/groups by just a little and stupid argument between 2 of its members. One of the most important things that we must keep in mind is that the staff must be united at any time. That's something I somehow put in a second priority, and I believe I must offer my apologies, for being at some times more stubborn than I should have been. I just hope, that the rest of the members will soon forget this ridiculous event and focus on what should we do from now on.

A moderator or even a GM, shouldn't be the ones writing the rules of a forum. That's admins' job, however mods can discuss and propose ideas to be implemented. I don't want this event to be considered as a takeover on the administration, since it wasn't my idea and therefore, I don't want any one else believing it was that.

All topics have been exposed and now it's time for the administration to take a decission. DEV's decission may be wrong or right, but that was DEV's decission. MFG has to take his own decission. Hence, I ask:

What should we do now, Loona? You, as admin, must take a decission now, sicne we already wasted a lot of time. I'm ok with whatever decission the administration takes, since we already discussed about this and the rest of the staff seems to be fine with any decission; in other words, they accept both  "yes" and 'no"

@Dreamslayer: What do you refer by "homage to elecbyte"? There's already a topic explianing elecbyte's history. Care to develop?
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Re:Way to go Dev >:( =P
#40  July 07, 2004, 04:12:55 PM
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What should we do now, Loona?
At the moment he wants to wait for whatever Winane is going to do. Untill then the current forum rules apply.
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@Dreamslayer: What do you refer by "homage to elecbyte"? There's already a topic explianing elecbyte's history. Care to develop?
To make sure I did not overlook I checked again. There is a history for WinMugen but nothing about the history of Elecbyte. (Keep in mind I only checked the WinMugen board)
I was thinking something along the line of explaining how elecbyte was wanting to make a flight shooter then stumbling on the fighting engine. The different versions they had released at the different years. Talk abit about TestP. And then just sum it up with a thank you for the hard work they did and the legacy they left behind.

To be allowing the beta on Dev I feel that is the least the community can do. So everyone can thank elecbyte in there own way.

If someday they were to come back and view that forum I do not wish the first thing for them to think is that we have forgot about them and taken there project and ran with it ourselves. I want them to realize how much we understand that even this beta that is so controversial is derived because of them and them alone.

I have seen a few posts thanking Dev and/or thanking Rou Hei and it makes my stomach knot up. I want everyone to remember where we came from.

I know a bunch of this stuff is in the Docs but how many people read them? :P