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WAS the change a good idea? Guild preferation vote topic (Read 106959 times)

Started by ~*Ishida-Uryuu*~, August 27, 2007, 04:31:42 am
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Poll

Do you like Guild's change? Which Guild do you like best?

I like the new Guild better.
106 (39%)
I liked the old Guild better.
118 (43.4%)
I don't really care.
37 (13.6%)
Preferation isn't a word. >:(
11 (4%)

Total Members Voted: 248

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Nobun

Re: WAS the change a good idea? Guild preferation vote topic
#661  September 02, 2007, 03:32:53 pm
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My opinion about Mugen is always the same in years.

I am for opensource and for more freedom.

1) Anyone of us authors uses the sprites from other game and simply reproduce to mugen existing things. It is very hard and apprecciable, but sounds somewhat hypocrit to say "this is mine" (seeing the fact that original char is not our and seeing the fact we are using Mugen out of license terms). However I'll never host directly creations where author say "don't host it" and i'll never use code made by other (i'm able to program all by myself... I don't need to copy)...

2) Some of old rules were ridicoulously strict. It is important to respect the work of other people, but some limitations (like some rules recently created for fixes relases) were so strict to make impossibile to do some things... this pushes new authors to don't create anything...

For example that rules of the past can be abstractly used to say that a code like this is copyed

[State 200, SOUND]
type = PlaySnd
value = 1,0
trigger1 = time = 0

simply keeping one of thousands chars that has this command into their code in that point

3) More freedom, in my opinion, will be positive for author cooperations...

This is my personal idea... I don't push anyone to follow me... I'm only a promoter of GNU-Opensource license in relases, but anyone is free to follow or not GNU-Opensource ideals

-----

For this reason

I prefer NEW mugenguild
RETIRED FROM MUGEN WORLD.
All my creations (characters, stages, applications, etc) can be freely destributed and hosted anywhere without any limitation.

Developer of N.O.M.E.N. (Abandoned project).
Last Edit: September 03, 2007, 07:18:06 pm by Nobun

Byakko

Re: WAS the change a good idea? Guild preferation vote topic
#662  September 02, 2007, 04:05:18 pm
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Quote
but sounds somewhat hypocrit to say "this is mine" (seeing the fact that original char is not our and seeing the fact we are using Mugen out of license terms).
Those reactions (because they are REACTIONS, not ACTIONS) come when someone actually claims to have made something he simply didn't. WITH TIME, it became as it was recently. Forget history, and all it will do is repeat itself. The current Guild admins just purely forgot that everything that they are currently doing, it was already done in the past, and they forget that it didn't work back then. Not gonna work better this time around. And no, it's not "because of elitist creators". There's a huge difference between an action and the reactions it generates. Shutting down the reactions was never useful to stop what generated them.
Quote
For example that rules of the past can be abstractly used to say that a code like this is copyed
Hum... No, it didn't. It just simply never did.

And about your third point, it's not like nobody ever said the exact same thing. Please don't act as if the "others" didn't agree with open-source.

I could go on about how the "OMG I'm not going to share my grand wisdom with you" attack that a certain someone said is plainly stupid, seeing how many tutorials and how much help was brought by those targeted people...
If I struggled to the end of my determination, to the end of my way of life with my followers, if the result is ruin, then this ruin is inevitable. Grieve. Shed tears. But you cannot regret.
Last Edit: September 02, 2007, 04:13:16 pm by Baiken

BurgerKing

Re: WAS the change a good idea? Guild preferation vote topic
#663  September 02, 2007, 05:37:32 pm
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Watch your language.
\"oohwhap\" said:
dont requset my chars tey r prevet

Valodim

Re: WAS the change a good idea? Guild preferation vote topic
#664  September 02, 2007, 05:58:26 pm
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:thinking:

interlopher

Re: WAS the change a good idea? Guild preferation vote topic
#665  September 02, 2007, 08:05:54 pm
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Sepp said, September 02, 2007, 02:40:46 pm
Agentsix said, September 02, 2007, 02:19:25 pm
Nope, most of the drama comes from people in general.

Yeah.

And of course the "change" was not "necessary" (I mean, necessary for what?? The survival of MUGEN? lol Less drama? lol Ego boost? haha Depends on perspectives... few things are truly necessary).

I meant simple that the change was "Necessary" to bring back some sense of sanity to Mugen. I think things could have continued the way they were however I think more and more people would have continued to get fed up with the insanity of it all. So many things have been done out of pure spite by both the "Leachers" and the creators I think even the most hard core supporters of both sides were getting sick of it.

Blade Art

Re: WAS the change a good idea? Guild preferation vote topic
#666  September 03, 2007, 12:08:30 am
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interlopher said, September 02, 2007, 08:05:54 pm
Sepp said, September 02, 2007, 02:40:46 pm
Agentsix said, September 02, 2007, 02:19:25 pm
Nope, most of the drama comes from people in general.

Yeah.

And of course the "change" was not "necessary" (I mean, necessary for what?? The survival of MUGEN? lol Less drama? lol Ego boost? haha Depends on perspectives... few things are truly necessary).

I meant simple that the change was "Necessary" to bring back some sense of sanity to Mugen. I think things could have continued the way they were however I think more and more people would have continued to get fed up with the insanity of it all. So many things have been done out of pure spite by both the "Leachers" and the creators I think even the most hard core supporters of both sides were getting sick of it.
I couldn't say it better, Sir.
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Nobun

Re: WAS the change a good idea? Guild preferation vote topic
#667  September 03, 2007, 03:49:27 pm
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Quote
Please don't act as if the "others" didn't agree with open-source.

I could go on about how the "OMG I'm not going to share my grand wisdom with you" attack that a certain someone said is plainly stupid, seeing how many tutorials and how much help was brought by those targeted people...

This wasn't my intention... I'm sorry if my words can be interpreted in this (wrong) manner!
Perhaps of my bad english you give always different meanings to my words...

I mean to say that (when I can) I try to suggest to the people I know (that are author or wanted to become an author) to use the GNU-Opensource license into their own relases, but without any constriction of any type... I say to them only the reason becouse for me is better to have more freedom into relase license... I'd like to see many authors that decide to use Gnu-Opensource relase when pubblishing their work... but anyone can decide to pubblish its own work with the license conditions he prefer...

I hope now I explained better my point.
RETIRED FROM MUGEN WORLD.
All my creations (characters, stages, applications, etc) can be freely destributed and hosted anywhere without any limitation.

Developer of N.O.M.E.N. (Abandoned project).
Last Edit: September 03, 2007, 07:18:23 pm by Nobun

Bastard Mami

Re: WAS the change a good idea? Guild preferation vote topic
#668  September 03, 2007, 11:36:00 pm
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if you are not going to earn money, why earn headaches ?

ziltama

Re: WAS the change a good idea? Guild preferation vote topic
#669  September 05, 2007, 12:39:04 am
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Granted, there are new rules, BUT there should be a minimum standard set when posting in the releases and projects sections.  Minimum, itself, is vague, but there are certain topics that aren't even worth to flame or watch other people make fun of.  (As an aside, flame wars are usually the result of crap releases and are probably deserved [to an extent].)

For projects, if there's no in-game screenshot, it should be moved to discussion.  Projects should be for true WIPs, and not just a plan, thought, or photoshop manipulation.

For character releases, if it's unplayable/too early to release, move it to projects.  There is nothing to prevent people from providing download links in the projects section, and IMO, it should be done much more often (to test characters before official releases).

For stage releases, if it's just a single-layered static image without a floor, move it to projects.  That's basically not a stage (very few exceptions).  If the stage is obviously grossly incomplete (or not as advertised), then move it to projects.

Some crap is better dealt with by flames, err, critical feedback, but some is better dealt with by moving them to a more appropriate section (better feedback, clue to the author that the release isn't ready for prime-time).

Kratos

Re: WAS the change a good idea? Guild preferation vote topic
#670  September 05, 2007, 02:17:41 am
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ziltama said, September 05, 2007, 12:39:04 am
Granted, there are new rules, BUT there should be a minimum standard set when posting in the releases and projects sections.  Minimum, itself, is vague, but there are certain topics that aren't even worth to flame or watch other people make fun of.  (As an aside, flame wars are usually the result of crap releases and are probably deserved [to an extent].)

For projects, if there's no in-game screenshot, it should be moved to discussion.  Projects should be for true WIPs, and not just a plan, thought, or photoshop manipulation.

For character releases, if it's unplayable/too early to release, move it to projects.  There is nothing to prevent people from providing download links in the projects section, and IMO, it should be done much more often (to test characters before official releases).

For stage releases, if it's just a single-layered static image without a floor, move it to projects.  That's basically not a stage (very few exceptions).  If the stage is obviously grossly incomplete (or not as advertised), then move it to projects.

Some crap is better dealt with by flames, err, critical feedback, but some is better dealt with by moving them to a more appropriate section (better feedback, clue to the author that the release isn't ready for prime-time).

+1

The release and project threads are filling up with shit that doesn't even need to be there.
New rules, ok, they're made and enforced. None of us can really do anything about that so we'll have to live with it. But perhaps putting some thought toward the requirements that Ziltama described would be good too. ;)

Bea

Re: WAS the change a good idea? Guild preferation vote topic
#671  September 05, 2007, 01:22:07 pm
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ziltama said, September 05, 2007, 12:39:04 am
For projects, if there's no in-game screenshot, it should be moved to discussion.  Projects should be for true WIPs, and not just a plan, thought, or photoshop manipulation.

I disagree with this part.
I concur that should be proof of the development, but I find that requiring to post a screenshot rather pointless. A screenshoot proves nothing.
I can make a thread about a very valid project by posting code and code only. Not to mention that I recently did such, asking for feedback on a subject related to an already released project of mine, which I was updating. That topic had no screenshoots, but it was very valid, thank you.

So, yes to require proof, as long that proof doesn't mean screenshots.
Princess Adora: "My friend saw She-Ra take her dress off in the shower. She said she has an 8 pack. She said She-Ra is shredded."

SF2NES is dead. Long live SF2NES.

Cybaster

Re: WAS the change a good idea? Guild preferation vote topic
#672  September 05, 2007, 01:38:06 pm
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Well, your project was already released, so of course it was already valid. Plus, posting an actual video is even better proof than screenshots, which is what you did. :P

Bleh, whatever...

BTW, the minimal requirements is too vague, and nobody can enforce such a thing. If oowhap or shazzo feel their character is complete - if a guy thinks the single image stage he has released with no floor is complete... then what can you do ? He thinks it's good, he'll get flamed. That's the internet.

All these things are about common sense. If people are just too dumb to know if something is ready for release or not, it's their problem, and they should expect flaming.

Bea

Re: WAS the change a good idea? Guild preferation vote topic
#673  September 05, 2007, 02:38:04 pm
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Cybaster:

I was refering to this particular topic, which had, like, no pictures, nor videos. :P
Accordingly by the rules at that time, and the suggested rules, my topic would be invalid and moved to mugen discussion. :P
Princess Adora: "My friend saw She-Ra take her dress off in the shower. She said she has an 8 pack. She said She-Ra is shredded."

SF2NES is dead. Long live SF2NES.

Loona

Re: WAS the change a good idea? Guild preferation vote topic
#674  September 05, 2007, 02:45:53 pm
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The problem with the whole "if it's not good/ready/proven it'll get flamed" attitude is that flaming usually also means "bumping" the topic in question, risking letting interesting projects sink because the controversial ones are getting all the attention...

I wonder how viable it would be to have two "layers" of Project/WIP section, an Alpha/Tentative one for when ideas are being pondered on and/or only basic work is done, and a Beta/Functioning(?) one for stuff that's already working to some extent, yet not complete (stages missing layers/animation, characters missing attacks, etc...). Maybe even make Releases a part of such a continuum, who knows...
Then again, not everyone who'd start a topic might haev a very clear notion of where his would fit...

Byakko

Re: WAS the change a good idea? Guild preferation vote topic
#675  September 05, 2007, 03:12:58 pm
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Loona said, September 05, 2007, 02:45:53 pm
The problem with the whole "if it's not good/ready/proven it'll get flamed" attitude is that flaming usually also means "bumping" the topic in question, risking letting interesting projects sink because the controversial ones are getting all the attention...
* Baiken thinks of a "sage" feature like with most imageboards
Quote
I wonder how viable it would be to have two "layers" of Project/WIP section, an Alpha/Tentative one for when ideas are being pondered on and/or only basic work is done, and a Beta/Functioning(?) one for stuff that's already working to some extent, yet not complete (stages missing layers/animation, characters missing attacks, etc...). Maybe even make Releases a part of such a continuum, who knows...
First sounds like something that could go to the General Mugen discussion judging by the previous habits, second sounds like a plain beta release.
... When someone makes a beta public release, it sometime is done as part of a wip topic ; it would be unnecessary to make a new topic in a different section (such as the release section) because it would be user unfriendly to keep track of both the wip and the beta topic. Otherwise, for a brand new topic in relaese for a beta, it's pointed out that it is a beta, or there also is the creator-only board (well, was, apparently, well done Guild). I'm gliding over topics made in release section that get flamed because it's incomplete even when it's pretty clear it's a beta.
... Just leave it like that. ... I mean, like it was. Before the change. When there was a place where we could make sure we'd get only relevant responses. Unlike the current state where 90% of the replies are often useless. Not that it wasn't the case before, but at least there was a place to make sure it wouldn't.

Judging by the new general lines of the forum, the WIP section could just as well be your "tentative WIP" version - one without the screenshot rules, one where everybody could post their "I want to make a full Guilty Gear game, as soon as I know how to make the standing animation". It's not like it would look too different from the rest of the forum. Who cares if people in it are seriously working ? Who cares about the quality of the work afterall ? That's the new tendency around here anyway, as long as it rakes people in and they don't bother you trying to enforce their silly rules.
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Last Edit: September 05, 2007, 03:35:51 pm by Baiken

XGargoyle

Re: WAS the change a good idea? Guild preferation vote topic
#676  September 05, 2007, 03:26:27 pm
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The change has been an excellent idea.
Holy smokes Batman!! Just look at the releases' section...
I can see like 20 new releases per day!! It's like all contributors are in a production line releasing stuff
Simply amazing!!!

Such productivity rates have never seen in the mugen history.
Updates and innovative stuff is released everyday.
Compared to the scarce releases that happened in the past, this is a real improvement.
Key of this success has been the new staff and their decission to change for better.
Suddenly, I have the urge to come back and release all my new stuff.

MFG FTW  :sugoi:

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DavidGee

Re: WAS the change a good idea? Guild preferation vote topic
#677  September 05, 2007, 04:41:22 pm
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XGargoyle said, September 05, 2007, 03:26:27 pm
Holy smokes Batman!! Just look at the releases' section...
I can see like 20 new releases per day!! It's like all contributors are in a production line releasing stuff
Simply amazing!!!

Such productivity rates have never seen in the mugen history.

I think it has more to do with the rising popularity of Mugen, which I don't think is related to the regime change. The removal of long-held and ill-conceived notions like "creator" worship, the atrocities that "leechers" commit, unrequestable lists, enforcing pretend copyright law to protect ridiculous "rights," and whatever else, is all for the better. That there may simply be too much development activity for a person to keep track of is another issue. The existence of a good portal and news site that would save users all the labor required to be on top of everything would be great, especially if all authors realized that their Mugen work, once they've uh... distributed it to the public, really serves no use aside from being freely donated to the public. I mean, what do they need in return? Being put on a list to make sure no filthy noobs can get their precious codez? Let's be rational here!

EDIT: Actually though, the number of pages of replies to a release may be a good indication of its usefulness and suitability to download. ;)

Valodim

Re: WAS the change a good idea? Guild preferation vote topic
#678  September 05, 2007, 05:19:29 pm
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dude, you should redo that steroid test :tongoi:

DavidGee

Re: WAS the change a good idea? Guild preferation vote topic
#679  September 05, 2007, 05:26:24 pm
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Clarify.
Last Edit: September 05, 2007, 05:31:20 pm by DavidGee

Byakko

Re: WAS the change a good idea? Guild preferation vote topic
#680  September 05, 2007, 05:27:31 pm
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If I struggled to the end of my determination, to the end of my way of life with my followers, if the result is ruin, then this ruin is inevitable. Grieve. Shed tears. But you cannot regret.
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