The Mugen Fighters Guild - A Modern CvS with 3 Grooves

RagingRowen

A Modern CvS with 3 Grooves

#1 August 22, 2023, 02:14:02 am

Formerly known as HyperClawManiac
Competitive MUGEN when?

To make things easier, I'm going with 4-buttons since I will struggle to implement different mechanics for each groove with each P+K strength and such.

C-Groove:
Pretty much just SF6.
- Dash
- EX Moves
LP+LK = Drive Parry
HP+HK = Drive Impact + Drive Reversal (Costs 1 Bar)

V-Groove:
Hybrid of various SF and KOF mechanics of the past.
- Dash
- Just Defend
- Crush Counter
LP+LK = Unique Skill (Groove-exclusive move unique to each fighter, kinda like V-Skill)
HP+HK = Power Charge

S-Groove:
Based around KOF Mechanics. Essentially representing KOFXV.
- Run
- Long Jumps
LP+LK = Rolls + Guard Cancel Rolls
HP+HK = MAX Mode + Quick MAX (Costs 2 Bars)

I'm fine with C and S, but I'm not very satisfied with V. I added the Unique Skill thing as a way to make up for the underwhelming nature of it, you gain an extra move to make up for a lack of substantial system mechanics.

What do y'all think of this, and/or do you have any suggestions or ideas of your own?

WIP Schedule:
The next Street Fighter All-Stars update

Charles_2011

Re: A Modern CvS with 3 Grooves

#2 August 22, 2023, 02:44:15 am

Online

Grooves? That would be interesting. What characters do you have in mind?

SquidlyPoli1

Re: A Modern CvS with 3 Grooves

#3 August 22, 2023, 03:00:03 am

Did I hear something about a scooby snack?

I feel like this idea kinda lacks the "uniformity" of the mechanics that CvS had, where not every groove had to have every mechanic but they were easier to make sprites for since they wouldn't need to be character-specific. It's not as bad with the Drive Impact as you probably could recreate it by reusing a stronger normal (like the SNK characters and their blowback/strong animations) but the V-Skill standin would probably need the most resources as it's essentially a completely new move that would probably be better as a Special or just completely nonexistent since not all characters are going to have particularly great ideas (For example they couldn't come up with anything good for Guile that wasn't just another projectile).

I do agree with the V groove being a bit sloppy, not just because of the heavy undertaking of the V-Skill standin but also having wlanman power charging and just defend in the same play type. The main reason why just defend usually works is primarily because it's usually there when there's no other way to gain meter (like in cvs2 k-groove where the only other way was getting hit), and having an option that allows you to gain power offensively while also having the defensive option just seems poorly thought out. I could be wrong about it but I personally don't feel like it bides well with me.

jaede_

Re: A Modern CvS with 3 Grooves

#4 August 22, 2023, 03:19:59 am

it's me
Bat's a Wrap.

SquidlyPoli1 said, August 22, 2023, 03:00:03 am

The main reason why just defend usually works is primarily because it's usually there when there's no other way to gain meter

Just to let you know, just defending originates in Garou: Mark of the Wolves, that has traditional meter gain WITH JD giving life and meter back too, even lets you airblock things you normally wouldn't. And that game also is the game where Kevin can do rotor cancels to gain incredible meter.

Yeaaaah im shootign ducks wiht the paino

Flowrellik

Re: A Modern CvS with 3 Grooves

#5 August 22, 2023, 03:36:17 am

Raging Fist

Hmm It seems like you got some thing going good here, but if you ever in need of refinement, I would probably look into researching the groovebars that were in Capcom vs SNK 2 and possibly merging what they offer down from 6 bars to 3. You got a great setup so far and I would love to see it improve even further.

PotS

Re: A Modern CvS with 3 Grooves

#6 August 22, 2023, 07:38:43 pm

RagingRowen said, August 22, 2023, 02:14:02 am

To make things easier, I'm going with 4-buttons since I will struggle to implement different mechanics for each groove with each P+K strength and such.

Well which one is more important: number of buttons or making a mechanic for every combination?

You can help with Ikemen GO's development by trying out the latest development build and reporting any bugs on GitHub.
My Mugen and Ikemen content can also be found here.

RagingRowen

Re: A Modern CvS with 3 Grooves

#7 August 22, 2023, 07:53:10 pm

Formerly known as HyperClawManiac
Competitive MUGEN when?

PotS said, August 22, 2023, 07:38:43 pm

RagingRowen said, August 22, 2023, 02:14:02 am
To make things easier, I'm going with 4-buttons since I will struggle to implement different mechanics for each groove with each P+K strength and such.
Well which one is more important: number of buttons or making a mechanic for every combination?

The latter, because I'd need 3 mechanics for each strength if we were doing 6 buttons and I already kinda struggled with finding 2 in 4 buttons.

WIP Schedule:
The next Street Fighter All-Stars update

FeLo_Llop

Re: A Modern CvS with 3 Grooves

#8 August 23, 2023, 12:37:33 am

¡Ni p*ta ni santa! ¡Digo!
Online

I think 3 grooves is OK, specially because is well thought.

Theeee opposite I feel about a 4 button system. I can understand this is because of KoF characters who don't have those basic 6 button attack, but...I feel a bit empty if it's a CvS, IMHO.

I swear there was something cool here!!

SquidlyPoli1

Re: A Modern CvS with 3 Grooves

#9 August 23, 2023, 01:01:31 am

Did I hear something about a scooby snack?

jaede_ said, August 22, 2023, 03:19:59 am

Just to let you know, just defending originates in Garou: Mark of the Wolves, that has traditional meter gain WITH JD giving life and meter back too, even lets you airblock things you normally wouldn't. And that game also is the game where Kevin can do rotor cancels to gain incredible meter.

I did think about garou but it completely passed my mind when writing what I wrote. I feel really bad now but don't really know how to talk about how I feel about mixing the wlan power charge with just defend (especially if you don't have to charge to get the meter)

FeLo_Llop said, August 23, 2023, 12:37:33 am

Theeee opposite I feel about a 4 button system. I can understand this is because of KoF characters who don't have those basic 6 button attack, but...I feel a bit empty if it's a CvS, IMHO.

I disagree, having four attack buttons is a bit less bloated compared to six. The punch-kick layout is still there but you only have to learn two strengths, and it's only one button more than the three buttons most non-SF players are fine with. The original CvS (and CvS Pro) also had four attack buttons, though they made it six in CvS2 because the SF players got mad and weren't comfortable with it idk.

KarmaCharmeleon

Re: A Modern CvS with 3 Grooves

#10 November 28, 2023, 03:03:22 am

In a few minutes, bitch

I couldn't sleep so I decided to post my pitch for CvS 2023

CvS 2023

OVERALL GAMEPLAY
Its CvS babyy. Teams, grooves and ratios are back. The game is very grounded like CvS2, but the pace is faster due to longer, chunkier combos.

GROOVES
There's less grooves (only 4) and each groove has less mechanics (2-3), but the goal is to make each mechanic more impactful to sell the fantasy of unique gameplay. The grooves are based off both modern and classic Capcom/SNK games with Green/Yellow (SF6/KOF) grooves representing modern Capcom/SNK and Blue/Red (SFA/SS) representing classic Capcom/SNK. The last pair also intends to revive the old A-Groove/K-Groove rivalry from CvS2.

GROOVE SYSTEM

All grooves have primary Super Gauge used for Supers, and a groove specific secondary bar that is segmented in 8 stocks. For the secondary groove, picture the Drive Gauge from SF6 but it changes color depending on the groove and it has two extra segments.

ALL GROOVES
All OD (EX) Specials cost 2 stocks of the gauge.

GREEN GROOVE - The SF6 Groove
MP+MK: Drive Parry (costs 1 stock)
-> F, F: Drive Rush (costs 1 stock)
HP-HK: Drive Impact (costs 1 stock)

This is the early game groove. You are at peak strength when the round starts, but get weaker overtime. The philosophy is contrary to Yellow Groove (KoF), which is a lategame groove. You start the Round with 8 stocks full. Sucesfully parrying an attack recovers the stock back. You don't burnout upon reaching 0 stocks, but you don't recharge passively like in SF6. You recharge 4 stocks upon losing the first character, and 2 stocks upon losing the second character; this works as opposed to KoF XV, which gives you more resources whenever a character goes down.

BLUE GROOVE - The Alpha Groove
MP+MK: Alpha Counter (costs 4 stocks)
HP-HK: Custom Combo (costs 8 stocks)

This is the win more groove. You start the round with 0 stocks, and build stock by hitting the opponent. Alpha Counters are powerful, hard to bait get-out of jail cards. Custom Combo has lots of invincibility and does ridicolous damage.

RED GROOVE- The Samurai Shodown Groove
MP+MK: Concentration (drains stocks over time)
HP+HK (while getting hit): Rage Explosion (costs 0 stocks but destroys your gauge for the rest of game)

This is the comeback groove. You start the round with 0 stocks, and build stock by getting hit. Concentration drains your Red Stocks to build Super Gauge. Upon getting full Red Stock, you get Raged, which increases your attack, defense, gives you access to meterless infinite OD Specials, and lets you use your lvl 3 for free. Rage Explosion is a combo breaker that only works on the ground. It will enrage the character but the duration depends on how much rage you had.

YELLOW GROOVE - The KoF Groove.
MP+MK: Power Charge (builds you yellow stocks overtime)
HP+HK: MAX Mode (costs 8 stocks)
-> HP+HK (on hit/block): Quick MAX Mode (costs 8 stocks)

This is the big brain groove. You start the round with 0 stocks, and build stock by using Power Charge. You charge 2 stocks upon losing the first character, and 4 stocks upon losing the second character. Upon activating MAX mode, your character glows yellow and can cancel special moves into special moves. You can Quick MAX Mode to cancel a normal on hit or block, but the install will last less time. With this groove you want to teambuild following KoF Philosophy of Point/Flex/Anchor. You also want to constantly pick between okizeme and power charging.

RATIO SYSTEM

CvS2 Ratios are back, although a bit different from before. Before selecting your characters, you have to pick between playing with one, two, or three characters in your team. A team of 3 will make the three character ratio 2; a team of 2 will make the two characters ratio 3, and a solo team will make the character ratio 5. Higher ratios will give your characters more health and damage, and ratio 5 characters will cap the Super Gauge at 5 bars instead of 3. You'll have to choose between stats or matchup versatility, and pick your groove according: grooves like Green or Yellow benefit from having multiple members on your team, while grooves like Red and Blue benefit from a character with higher health pool.

ROSTER

Base Roster

DLC

CvS 2003: Ultimate Edition

RagingRowen

Re: A Modern CvS with 3 Grooves

#11 November 28, 2023, 09:34:36 pm

Formerly known as HyperClawManiac
Competitive MUGEN when?

KarmaCharmeleon said, November 28, 2023, 03:03:22 am

Damn this is deep and pretty fascinating tbf.

I'm kinda judging Green Groove since I think DI over the course of 8 stocks is a bit much. Maybe you could up it from 1 stock to 2.

Also what's LP+LK gonna be? Throws, or Evades again?

WIP Schedule:
The next Street Fighter All-Stars update

SquidlyPoli1

Re: A Modern CvS with 3 Grooves

#12 November 29, 2023, 06:43:36 am

Did I hear something about a scooby snack?

The pitch took me about a day to process and while I do like a lot about it there's still quite a few things I don't understand. I get that you designed the green groove to be a bit more high risk but at the same time I feel like making drive impact cost one stock out of the eight feels like way too low since its an advancing attack with armor that causes either a guard crush or a crumple state depending on the situation and making it so easy to access will make it easier to abuse. The drive parry being one stock is fine since it is just a parry so it probably shouldnt cost too much since it works well for what it is. I havent actually touched SF6 despite wanting to keep up with it more and maybe my design works against what that stands for, idk. Pairing wlan power charges with max mode makes some sense and I have seen you talk about the charging being an oki trick a lot. I personally dont like the idea of having the rage explosion burst in a cvs game, and even though you said combos were long, you didn't really say how long, and since cvs isn't known for particularly long combos like marvel or guilty gear are (not counting dictator painting the fence or sakura shoshosho because thats custom combo which has way more freedom than the usual combo system) it just kinda feels out of place. EX specials would be better if they used the super meter instead of the stock meter, that's just kinda how it's always been and wouldnt work really well with stuff like green groove which doesnt recharge or build up at all or even the aforementioned rage explosion burst in the red groove.

The roster is fine for what is basically a PotS sus asset dump but I can't say it's exactly the best for a new CvS. It's missing a lot of the new faces from over the years, which is weird because there's a groove based on SF6, but isn't exactly the weirdest because making new sprites in the CvS style for that many characters probably costs hundreds if not thousands of dollars. ~~You also included sonic and shadow in a game with a primarily human cast and they stick out like a sore thumb.~~

RagingRowen

Re: A Modern CvS with 3 Grooves

#13 November 29, 2023, 12:50:46 pm

Formerly known as HyperClawManiac
Competitive MUGEN when?

SquidlyPoli1 said, November 29, 2023, 06:43:36 am

The roster is fine for what is basically a PotS sus asset dump but I can't say it's exactly the best for a new CvS. It's missing a lot of the new faces from over the years, which is weird because there's a groove based on SF6, but isn't exactly the weirdest because making new sprites in the CvS style for that many characters probably costs hundreds if not thousands of dollars. ~~You also included sonic and shadow in a game with a primarily human cast and they stick out like a sore thumb.~~

Yeah, the lack of newer fighters probably has do with the lack of both top-notch sprites and animations.

WIP Schedule:
The next Street Fighter All-Stars update

KarmaCharmeleon

Re: A Modern CvS with 3 Grooves

New #14 November 29, 2023, 11:41:03 pm

In a few minutes, bitch

SquidlyPoli1 said, November 29, 2023, 06:43:36 am

The pitch took me about a day to process and while I do like a lot about it there's still quite a few things I don't understand.

Thanks for taking the time to read thru the whole thing!

SquidlyPoli1 said, November 29, 2023, 06:43:36 am

I get that you designed the green groove to be a bit more high risk but at the same time I feel like making drive impact cost one stock out of the eight feels like way too low since its an advancing attack with armor that causes either a guard crush or a crumple state depending on the situation and making it so easy to access will make it easier to abuse.

It's true, maybe two stocks would be better. Its hard to know because in some ways DI is buffed because not all groove have DI to counter DI, and in some ways in nerfed considering you don't get to DI someone on burnout to dizzy. The cool thing about the stock system in general is that cost can be used as a balance measure, so if a groove is underpowered or overpowered the value of the mechanics can be changed to tweak the strength without doing major changes.

SquidlyPoli1 said, November 29, 2023, 06:43:36 am

Pairing wlan power charges with max mode makes some sense and I have seen you talk about the charging being an oki trick a lot.

This one tho would need a lot of playtesting since I feel its a bit underpowered at the moment. Like its meant to be late game groove and MAX Mode has virtue over CC because you can cancel into it, but I'd have to see how it fares with the rest of the groove.

SquidlyPoli1 said, November 29, 2023, 06:43:36 am

I personally dont like the idea of having the rage explosion burst in a cvs game

Bear in mind its a Burst than only works if you're standing. So you can't burst mid combo, most of the times you have to burst the normal that will lead the combo on prediction.

SquidlyPoli1 said, November 29, 2023, 06:43:36 am

and even though you said combos were long, you didn't really say how long, and since cvs isn't known for particularly long combos like marvel or guilty gear are (not counting dictator painting the fence or sakura shoshosho because thats custom combo which has way more freedom than the usual combo system) it just kinda feels out of place.

Here's something I wanted to discuss. You see, CvS2 was made in 2000, a time where Capcom and SNK (or more precisely Street Fighter and KoF) weren't the big combo games they are now. The heavy emphasis on footsies comes from games like SFII, SFA, KoF 98 or SamSho. I don't feel surprised there's a single SF3 character, and that there isn't any kof character past 98. But now both Street Fighter and KoF evolved into games where the footsies are faster and the BnBs are longer. CvS is a celebration of the fighters of both companies, hence why characters like Morrigan or Kyosuke migrate the mechanics from their games even tho their suited for more combos. I feel that a modern take on CvS would have to take that into account, because we're on an age where the slow pace gameplay doesn't belong to SF or KoF anymore.

SquidlyPoli1 said, November 29, 2023, 06:43:36 am

EX specials would be better if they used the super meter instead of the stock meter, that's just kinda how it's always been and wouldnt work really well with stuff like green groove which doesnt recharge or build up at all or even the aforementioned rage explosion burst in the red groove.

Actually its been changed on SF6 to use the Drive Meter, and I think that's genius. There's a problem with EX moves, and its the fact that more often than not they end up being either way more efficent or way more inefficent than supers. In games like 3S the super arts are so strong and the EX moves are so weak that half of the roster prefers to save for super over using ex moves. In games like XV it's straight up better to use two ex moves over 1 lvl 1 super almost all the times. Since you have 5 bars you can still get two working together but in a game with 3 super bars tops, let's call it PotS: the Full Game it almost never be more efficent to spend the bar into the lvl 3 over using the ex moves and then super canceling.

By having them use two resources you can see both type of moves used in tandem. Also, I think there's a lot of merit to have them use the secondary resource as you have to pick between extending the combo or save for your system mechanics, which are very impactful. I feel that in that sense you'd promote footsies and slow neutral over spending the bar on the ex donkey kick ASAP.

SquidlyPoli1 said, November 29, 2023, 06:43:36 am

The roster is fine for what is basically a PotS sus asset dump but I can't say it's exactly the best for a new CvS. It's missing a lot of the new faces from over the years, which is weird because there's a groove based on SF6, but isn't exactly the weirdest because making new sprites in the CvS style for that many characters probably costs hundreds if not thousands of dollars. ~~You also included sonic and shadow in a game with a primarily human cast and they stick out like a sore thumb.~~

Well spotted, its the roster i came up with for the Untitled PotS Comp that I intend to eventually make with Jman. Its a bit of a meme, especially the last one. Not only Sonic and SHadow are there; you can see May Lee replacing Kim in the last image. That was a joke from the time Kim wasn't in KoF XV and was directed to Jman whom hates May lee for being a Eolith character.

However, I took the time to make a more serious pitch for a roster. Is not entirely serious as its a Smash Sized Roster, but at least it doesn't have Sonic the Hedgehog.

EDIT: Tweaked the picks, added some extra match-ups, and left 9 slots free for boss and dlc purposes.

I feel that with the amount of legacy both KoF and SF have, its impossible to make a small roster that takes the legacy of both companies into account while respecting the legacy CvS has as a series (like, you can't make a CvS game without Blanka, Dictator, Sagat, Sakura, Geese or Yamazaki).
Still, its "only" +24 characters over KoF XV and the picks are realistic as I feel the game would try to push a lot of the fanfavorites made thru 20 years of games and especially the newcommers from the recent sagas.

Last Edit: November 30, 2023, 11:25:59 am by KarmaCharmeleon

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A Modern CvS with 3 Grooves (Read 14411 times)

RagingRowen

A Modern CvS with 3 Grooves

Charles_2011

Re: A Modern CvS with 3 Grooves

SquidlyPoli1

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jaede_

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Flowrellik

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PotS

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RagingRowen

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FeLo_Llop

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SquidlyPoli1

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KarmaCharmeleon

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RagingRowen

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SquidlyPoli1

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RagingRowen

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KarmaCharmeleon

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