Flandre RP

[Seravy]

Unfortunately, RicePigeon stopped updating his Touhou characters, even though they were pretty good and popular, so I decided to do it instead.
The first one I updated was Flandre, because she is the one I was most familiar with.

Here is the updated version : http://mugenevolution.co.uk/seravy/Beta/Flandre_RP.zip
She has been released already so get her from the download page : http://seravy.x10.mx/Wordpress/


My main questions are these :
-Is there anything I should have changed but didn't?
-Is there anything I changed but shouldn't have?
-Out of the updates I added, which ones do you like the most/ consider the most important?
-If you do like this update, which RP characters do you want me to update the most in a similar way?
-Should 4 of a Kind clones keep attacking based on player input, essentially miming your movements, or should I change the clones to work on their own under AI control?

A detailed list of changes (might have forgotten to list some minor things, though)

(Sorry, the spoiler tag doesn't seem to work, so this will be long)

-Converted to SFFv2
-Added minus.st file to contain minus states
-Added AI module to detect crouching/standing/invincible/reflect moves from my characters (AI.st)
-Added Palette Keymap to def files
-Added AI activation and grazing to state -3
-Added POTS prevent underground juggles code
-Added system anims, states and sounds (162,163, 6111,6017, 9999, S0,14)
-Added AI to guard and jump states
-Updated jump and landing to allow guarding
-Updated recovery states
-Updated liedown states to force lidedown.time (prevent early standup by spamming buttons)
-Added option to select grazing type (NP-SP, full, or none), available in Minus.st
-Switched buttons a/b/c with x/y/z through keymapping
-Added graze to the unused z button (original FF/BB commands also work)
-Bugfix : fixed character being vulnerable to attacks while standing up with the fwd/back button
-Updated dash states to contain grazing
-Updated Head.pos and Mid.pos values
-Added Super Jump/Graze up
-Forced spellcard select to always select 9 points of cards (original sometimes selected only 7, now it will keep trying until 9 are selected)
-Adjusted clsns where necessary
-Updated AI
-Removed P2facing=1 from all hitdefs because it is not blocked by hitoverride, messing up uninterruptable attacks by turning the enemy
-Removed power cost from "z" version of specials, and adjusted them accordingly (slower startup and/or other changes where necessary)
-Adjusted random spellcard selection to make a more random selection
-Standing/Crouching attacks are no longer unguardable in air
-Strong attack (c) is now a projectile
-Strong attack (c) no longer hits a falling opponent, and always sets the fall flag (was an infinite in the original)
-Enabled AI to use Strong attack (c)
-Adjusted effect size on crouching strong (c) to match the actual hit area better
-Enabled AI to use crouching light attack (D+a)
-Added clsn2 to throw (no invincibility while throwing the opponent anymore)
-Removed immunity to air from light version of Laevateinn
-Changed invincibility on strong version of Laevateinn to work against all normal and special attacks instead of air anything
-Increased clsn1 size on Laevatein to match where the sword reaches
-Reduced the startup speed of all version of Laevatein to compensate for the higher range
-Increased juggle point cost of most attacks
-Reduced the time you can't use Counter Clock for after the previous one disappears significantly
-Removed invincibility from Shockwave while grabbing an enemy
-Changed shockwave projectile to be projectile (C,SP) type (was attack type)
-Crouching strong (c) attack is now recognized by the AI module in all characters as a non-standard attack that needs to be guarded high
-Shockwave special move is now recognized by the AI module in all characters as a non-standard attack that needs to be guarded low
-Removed startup invincibility from Destruction Arrow
-Destruction Arrow now has the same type of grazing as selected for dashes, while Flandre is attacking
-Z version of Destruction Arrow does damage to Flandre when hitting in exchange for being faster and stronger than other versions
-Z version of Destruction Arrow is no longer unguardable
-Added juggle point cost to Destruction Arrow
-Enabled AI to use Destruction Arrow
-Enabled AI to use Cranberry Trap
-Cranberry Trap guarded damage is reduced to 0
-Changed CA invincibility to full invincibility while using Hell Catastrophe
-Enabled AI to use Hell Catastrophe
-Greatly reduced guarded damage of Hell Catastrophe
-Enabled AI to use 4 of a Kind
-Enabled AI to use Starbow Break
-Starbow Break no longer provides immunity to hyper projectiles if the grazing option is not set to maximum.
It does provide immunity to normal and special projectiles even when grazing is off, though.
-Kagome Kagome no longer has startup immuniy against hyper throws. (but still has against all attacks and non-hyper throws)
-Reduced damage of Starbow Break and Kagome Kagome
-Ripples of 495 Years now has full invincibility instead of partial
-Ripples is no longer unguardable in air, and it does HT type damage instead of HP(you aren't supposed to graze fullscreen attacks, there is no place to avoid them...)
-Added Attackdist to 495 Years to allow the AI to guard against it
-Royal Flush can be guarded in air.
-Enabled AI to use lv3 spellcards. Yes, the original couldn't use any of them.
-4 of a Kind clones inherit Flandre's AI strenght under AI control
-Limited Cranberry Trap to be unusable until the last projectile from the previous one disappears
-Limited charge to be unusable until the last projectile from Cranberry Trap disappears
-4 of a kind clones disappear when the round ends
-Removed the reversaldef from And Then There Was None because it can potentially cause problems by reversing helpers that shouldn't be reversible.
-And Then There Was None now provides immunity against crouching moves and physical attacks instead of crouching moves and projectiles on startup. The full invincibility on the dash part is unchanged.
-Added a new superportrait for ATTWN (thanks to Trinitronity for it)
-Added a better way to make opponent disappear after ATTWN.
-Updated Counter Clock to always turn towards the direction of the enemy(Projectiles facing away are unguarable to AI opponents due to how engine calculates guard distance)
-Enabled chaining Crouching light and medium attacks after standing light.
-Fixed quote selection when winning by ATTWN
-Added 2 new quotes, one against Remilia and one against Marisa

[Darkflare]

Ditch grazing.

Yes, Flandre is a touhou character.
Yes, Touhou characters are known for grazing(besides lol projectiles spam)

Despite this, I still say grazing should be ditched. Rice never intended for his Touhou characters to....well....play like Touhou characters. His characters play more like standard fighters than the projectile heavy variation Touhou normally has and adding grazing will just give an unfair advantage over the characters it was meant to be fought against in the first place.

[Seravy]

-Added option to select grazing type (NP-SP, full, or none), available in Minus.st

Set it to none, and there you go. It's at the top of the file :

[State 0, VarSet]
type = VarSet
trigger1 = 1
;***********************************************************************************************
var(55)=1     ; 0 - Graze OFF, 1 - Graze for normal and special proj., 2- Graze for all proj.
;***********************************************************************************************

I decided to make it optional because this way the character will be good for both normal and projectile heavy game environments. Grazing did get much more votes than no grazing on my poll (kinda expected from people visiting my site, I guess), not to mention, I need it if I want the character in my Mugen..which is kinda important because if I don't have it there I won't notice problems and won't be able to improve or even test it.

PS : I haven't really tested turning grazing off yet, so let me know if there is any problem with it.

[Zzyzzyxx]

-Updated liedown states to force lidedown.time (prevent early standup by spamming buttons)

This gimmick is glitchy. Sorry for saying that.

In the state 5110, the liedown time decreases for each time the character is hit.

This doesn't happen in your custom liedown states and the result is that your chars can be hit endlessly while downed if the opponent doesn't use juggle points or other self limitations. Demonstration:

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?tqn9766izmdwi66

[Seravy]

chars can be hit endlessly while downed if the opponent doesn't use juggle points or other self limitations.

Isn't that a bug in the attacker? Any L type hit state other than 5110 would behave this way. Yes, I know, characters rarely have L type hit states other than the 5110, but still, it's a possibility. It's like hitting falling opponents. You need juggle points on the attack, otherwise it'll be an infinite when the opponent isn't falling fast enough due to having low yaccel.

How much does a hit reduce the liedown.time? Does it depend on the damage, or is it constant? Does it always happen or are there conditions?
I could count the time reduction in an unused sysvar if I knew how exactly it needs to work.
I hope Mugen 1.1 will get rid of all the hardcoded stuff, and put these kinds of things into the common.cns code.

[Leon Tekashi]

Is there a Win Mugen version of this Flandre?

[Orochi Gill]

Why does everyone feel the need to ask that for everything

[MAO11]

let's talk about the spell cards. are you going to remake the spell cards?

[Leon Tekashi]

Why does everyone feel the need to ask that for everything

Sorry, it's just that I want to get my hands on a pretty good Flandre with a good AI.

[MAO11]

why not use 1.0? 1.1 is going to released at some point now anyway.

[Leon Tekashi]

why not use 1.0? 1.1 is going to released at some point now anyway.

Well, if I have no other choice, I guess I could use it.

[Seravy]

good AI

Good AI and Winmugen contradict each other. It had no Ailevel trigger, and an AI that ignores the selected game difficulty, I can't consider good.

let's talk about the spell cards. are you going to remake the spell cards?

No, I plan to keep the spell cards, and card system the same, and update as necessary.
Flandre was already released, so I can tell the spell card related changes I made, which are :
-Adjustments to damage
-Enabled AI to use all the spellcards (original could only use 3 out of the 9)
-Some changes to the type of Nothitby some cards provide
-The random card selection during intro is more randomized and will always select exactly 9 points of cards

A question. The original "Then There Was None" card used a Nothitby against all projectile attacks, which I changed to work against physical attacks instead. Which do you prefer, the projectiles, the physical attacks, or would it be better to have invincibility to everything except hypers, or maybe everything except throws?

Another question : Do you like the D,F,B,a/b/c commands for lv3 spell cards? If not, what command would you prefer instead? Would D,B,F,a/b/c better?

I'm going to start working on Yuyuko RP today, and after I'm done, Mima next.

[MAO11]

so no new spellcards. then , oh and i guess i'll go with projectile, she'll be too imbalance if she'll be like a tank that can beat you up close and spam projectiles.

and in touhou projectile are the main attacks though i'm pretty good using close attacks with suika in hisoutensoku. so i'll go with that.

seravy want to have voice for your yuyuko and some other touhou characters? who were in SWR and hisoutensoku? i've seen a fan dubbed one and it's amazing they're in wav format and already separated.

@[user id=35370]leon[/user]: trust me it's better there are alot of good stages and screen pack in 1.0 now. i used to whine and bitch about 1.0 too.

[Darkflare]

why not use 1.0? 1.1 is going to released at some point now anyway.

Well, if I have no other choice, I guess I could use it.

Besides 1.0 being overall better and more stable, I do believe Flandre's release was when RP started making 1.0 exclusive characters and I really doubt Seravy's going to do a WinMugen compatible version.

[Seravy]

so are you copying rp's cards? or you want to insert some of you interpretations of her cards too?

I'm planning to keep everything as it is. No new cards, unless a character has less than 9 implemented (I don't think there are any like that, but I go through them one by one so I don't know yet).

oh i guess i'll go with projectile, she'll be too imbalance if she'll be like a tank can beat you up close and spam projectiles at you.

The question was for the startup of the card "Then There Was None", the lv3 instant KO one. It's a close range attack. Essentially, I'd like to know how risky people want that attack to be. Being vulnerable to physical attacks makes it extremely risky, vulnerable to projectiles a little bit less risky but still risky, vulerable to throws or hypers only would make it safe to use (provided you don't get hit while entering the command) against AI but players could still do something about it. Fully invincible would be the most powerful option, but jumping out of the way would still dodge it.

seravy want to have voice for your yuyuko and some other touhou characters? who were in SWR and hisoutensoku?

All my Touhous already have a voice. I'm not sure if all of RP's ones do, but Yuyuko and Flandre does. I already have the Hisoutensoku voicepatch, if you are referring to that, I used it for my Tenshi and Cirno.

Well, if I have no other choice, I guess I could use it.

You don't have a choice. I don't make Winmugen characters because :
-Winmugen crashes too often to be playable
-I have no use for them because I don't play Winmugen, and I prefer not to make characters I can't use (I won't find the bugs that way)
-Winmugen AI can't read the difficulty level of the game, which is a great loss of quality on the AI
-Winmugen has no Cond trigger so tons of debug spam everywhere, again, it reduces the quality of the character
-Winmugen has tons of severe engine bugs, including one where characters end up in invalid states, so it can break the game (and the players won't be able to tell why and would blame it on the character)
-Winmugen is not compatible with SFFv2

PS : Does anyone know what could cause VSelect to crash in a character? Yuyuko RP loads in the game fine, but crashes VSelect, and it only started doing so after I edited the files and converted the SFF to v2. The author of Vselect didn't reply to my post about this crash yet. I had no problem with Flandre, or any other character before.

[MAO11]

Vselect crashes when i change my mugen in to a higher resolution idk why too.

[Seravy]

Added a poll for this question to my site, please vote!

The question was for the startup of the card "Then There Was None", the lv3 instant KO one. It's a close range attack. Essentially, I'd like to know how risky people want that attack to be. Being vulnerable to physical attacks makes it extremely risky, vulnerable to projectiles a little bit less risky but still risky, vulnerable to throws or hypers only would make it safe to use (provided you don't get hit while entering the command) against AI but players could still do something about it. Fully invincible would be the most powerful option, but jumping out of the way would still dodge it.

[Leon Tekashi]

why not use 1.0? 1.1 is going to released at some point now anyway.

Well, if I have no other choice, I guess I could use it.

Besides 1.0 being overall better and more stable, I do believe Flandre's release was when RP started making 1.0 exclusive characters and I really doubt Seravy's going to do a WinMugen compatible version.

I see, welp, better get use to using Mugen 1.0 more often

[Ricepigeon]

good AI

Good AI and Winmugen contradict each other. It had no Ailevel trigger, and an AI that ignores the selected game difficulty, I can't consider good.

I said it before and I'll say it again: if people are going to ask for winmugen conversions of characters, then I have the right to ask for DOSMugen conversions of characters. :p

No, I plan to keep the spell cards, and card system the same, and update as necessary.

Prior to the cancellations (everyone who's seen my videos should know why by now), I was actually planning to scrap the spellcard system entirely and go the more traditional route with more limited supers, or make it more akin to the SF games and have you choose your level 3, while limiting you to one or two level 1s depending on character (basically SSF4's system but with level 3 supers instead of ultras, instead of choosing 3-6 supers from 9). Lie was an experimentation of a potential route.

But, considering I've already "passed the torch", it's Seravy's call now.

-The random card selection during intro is more randomized and will always select exactly 9 points of cards

There was a fault in the original system where if the spellcard selection was less than 9 points, trying to recalculate could cause long delays in the spellcard select menu, causing it to pop up much later (or, if long enough, after the match starts) so I left it at 7 minimum which seemed like a reasonable amount. Besides that, some card combinations could not allow the max 9 points (ie: three lv1s one lv2, and one lv 3, which cost 8 points) so I left it in. I'm assuming you found a more efficient method that doesnt cause significant delay?

A question. The original "Then There Was None" card used a Nothitby against all projectile attacks, which I changed to work against physical attacks instead. Which do you prefer, the projectiles, the physical attacks, or would it be better to have invincibility to everything except hypers, or maybe everything except throws?

I was considering scrapping the immunity and giving her full vulnerability during the startup, especially considering her glass cannon motif.

Another question : Do you like the D,F,B,a/b/c commands for lv3 spell cards? If not, what command would you prefer instead? Would D,B,F,a/b/c better?

I believe I had that originally and scrapped it later on in favor of QCFx2 commands and the like (making them true 3 button characters instead of 6 like they were originally. I also stupidly used HCF and HCB commands for the supers (demonstrating my lack of fighting game knowledge at the time).

I'm planning to keep everything as it is. No new cards, unless a character has less than 9 implemented (I don't think there are any like that, but I go through them one by one so I don't know yet).

Yuugi had less than 9 before she was cancelled, iirc. Lie also had less than 9 but, as I said, she was an experimentation of a much simpler system.

[Seravy]

There was a fault in the original system where if the spellcard selection was less than 9 points, trying to recalculate could cause long delays in the spellcard select menu, causing it to pop up much later (or, if long enough, after the match starts) so I left it at 7 minimum which seemed like a reasonable amount. Besides that, some card combinations could not allow the max 9 points (ie: three lv1s one lv2, and one lv 3, which cost 8 points) so I left it in. I'm assuming you found a more efficient method that doesnt cause significant delay?

As far as I remember, all I had to do was to change the conditions on your changestate that re-tries and it worked. I did change the random selection part, though, it now goes through each card from Lv3 to Lv1 and sets it at a random chance (around 30-40% each card) if there are enough points left, or sets it at 100% if the remaining points are equal to the remaining unselected level 1s. This probably reduced the number of necessary retries by a lot. I guess repeating the state immediately instead of on tick one could eliminate the delay completely, and the chance for not finding a good combination in 2500 tries is astronomically low so there is no need to worry about a loop crash either. At worst, counting the number of tries and wait a tick when it's over 2000 is also possible...but it works fine right now even with 1 tick/try, so there is no need.

But, considering I've already "passed the torch", it's Seravy's call now.

I definitely won't limit supers any more, to be honest I found this system a bit too restrictive at first, but I have started liking it so it will stay. I considered removing the limitation and just allow all 9 cards, but it's better this way, having to choose cards feels more like Touhou.

I was considering scrapping the immunity and giving her full vulnerability during the startup, especially considering her glass cannon motif.

That's a possible option, but with that much startup time, it will get interrupted 99% of the time even against a medium level AI. There aren't many things more frustrating to a player than succeeding on entering the command, spending the power, but the attack ends up doing nothing. I think it should include physical attacks if the range remains the same, and it could be projectiles if it had a longer range. Increasing the superpause duration to make it easier to avoid for human players by a jump would probably be better than making it even harder to use against AI, which is too risky even this way.

I believe I had that originally and scrapped it later on in favor of QCFx2 commands and the like (making them true 3 button characters instead of 6 like they were originally. I also stupidly used HCF and HCB commands for the supers (demonstrating my lack of fighting game knowledge at the time).

Yeah, I ended up with this because Hcf/Hcb isn't good and Qcfx2/Qcbx2 are both already used (for lv1 and lv2 cards). The problem is all remaining options are kinda ugly, BFBFx2, FBFBx2,DFB,DBF I guess that's all the remaining options that wouldn't interfere with the specials.