Ashram's W.I.P.s - Oswald

[Ashram McDuck]

This is my first Mugen creation project, and I thought it about time to start an actual W.I.P. on the project. It started as a potential project and has slowly been moving forward. I don't know if the people I've had private conversations with want to have their names known, but I just want to say thanks to everyone before presenting what's been done. I've still got quite a bit to learn and do, but I've decided not to try and get in a hurry with this. So, to everyone who has helped me so far, thank you so much!

Alright, now on to what my first WIP is all about, Oswald from King of Fighters XI, an as close to accurate as I can get him creation. Anything he is able to do (minus a few things like Shifting) I want to try and incorporate. This includes:
- Skill Meter abilities such as Guard Evasions and Guard Cancel Blowout Attack
- All his chains and chain cancels
- His juggles
- All his in-game palettes

NOTE: I am using a lot of what the creator ahuron has already established in his Oswald creation, but my aim is to fix up a lot of (hopefully all ... HA!) the inaccuracies to the original Oswald. His sprite set up (not his velocities) and most of his animation timings are being used as a base. Everything else is there so I have something to play alongside the actual game to try and find out what's been totally broken and what can just be fixed.

UPDATE (8/10/2008)
All non-attack animations have been completed and given their CLSN boxes to as close to accurate as I can guess. Unfortunately, I learned about a week ago that I cannot get a PS2 emulator to function on my computer so I can obtain velocities and such to fix up the alignments of the sprites. Thankfully, someone (I don't know if this person wants me to use their name) has offered their assistance in this matter. While waiting, I'll be reading more about and starting the coding process of what I already have set up.

WHAT'S ON THE TABLE
Accurate CLSN boxes and proper coding are on my agenda, so here's what's been done. Any suggestions/improvements/etc. are welcome!

CLSN (Stand / Walk / Run / Crouch / Jump / Guard / Crouch Guard)

Just want to see if I got the gist of this.

Godbless

[Rajaa Retired]

He AsramVII i'm glad to see you finally decided to go ahead and begin creating Oswald, the one your were using is good but when you make a characters it's even beter than your initioal favoriteif not to anybody else but you, I'm sure you'll do well in creating him.

I fyou need assistance, for coding or anything just use the development area, an we'll all help you along the way.

Cheers,Rajaboy

[Jesuszilla]

Stance and walk can be simplified to 2 CLSNs (head and body). Run CLSN looks too simple; KoF usually uses 2 for that.



Also you cannot get accurate CLSNs from XI. The closest thing you can do is get CLSNs from previos KoF games, but Oswald debuted in XI which makes that impossible.

[Cybaster]

Maybe this topic can help a little bit, even though it doesn't necessarily apply to KOFXI :
http://randomselect.piiym.net/forum/index.php?topic=4046.0

Also, I think you should base your CLSNs on already existing characters from previous games. Pick a character which has more or less the same corpulence (Heidern maybe, not sure), look at his CLSNs via an emulator, and try giving Oswald the same shape.

[Ashram McDuck]

He AsramVII i'm glad to see you finally decided to go ahead and begin creating Oswald, the one your were using is good but when you make a characters it's even beter than your initioal favoriteif not to anybody else but you, I'm sure you'll do well in creating him.

I fyou need assistance, for coding or anything just use the development area, an we'll all help you along the way.

Cheers,Rajaboy

Much obliged Rajaa.

Stance and walk can be simplified to 2 CLSNs (head and body). Run CLSN looks too simple; KoF usually uses 2 for that.

I'm slightly stumped with the Run boxes, as in game testing leads me to believe he can be struck anywhere from the shoulder down (even the areas where you'd just be hitting air) so for now that's what I got. Will test this further, of course. His Walk stance I'm pretty sure can be simplified down to 2 CLSNs, but not his Stance. His Stance is at least 3 CLSNs, because you can strike him from the heel up to just above the knee, but you cannot strike his arms and hands. Somewhere around the edges of the chest area is where your hits connect. Will keep testing.

Also you cannot get accurate CLSNs from XI. The closest thing you can do is get CLSNs from previos KoF games, but Oswald debuted in XI which makes that impossible.

Which is why I'm trying to get as close to accurate as I can.

Thanks for the feedback. 

Maybe this topic can help a little bit, even though it doesn't necessarily apply to KOFXI :
http://randomselect.piiym.net/forum/index.php?topic=4046.0

Also, I think you should base your CLSNs on already existing characters from previous games. Pick a character which has more or less the same corpulence (Heidern maybe, not sure), look at his CLSNs via an emulator, and try giving Oswald the same shape.

The site looks promising, I'll read it later today.

I've got a MAME emulator, so I'll look into snagging some of KoFs that have Heidern and see what I can see. (though I'll need to figure out how to access the debug menu)

[K.O.D]

Use Kawaks for KoF games, here are Pre-2k3 dipswitches (courtesy Sander71113) :

DIP 1-1 : Debug Object in Middle      <Sprite viewer>
DIP 1-2 : CLSN boxes and Axis          <Axis and Clsn  viewer>
DIP 1-3 : Infinity Strikers, Time Stop, Access Throw

                edit mode, Access skill edit tools, DEMO

               check modes, stage select.. Maybe more

Text Box:               
DIP 1-4 : Basic velocity values
DIP 1-5 : Unknown (b4 kof2k..it's ASCII codes)
DIP 1-6 : P1,P2 infinity life
DIP 1-7 : Unknown...
DIP 1-8 : Able to pause in anywhere...then press

                P2's pause to see game frame by frame

DIP 2-1 : AI/other stuff edit tools    <Relative Distance>
DIP 2-2 : AI take control of P1 and P2.. I think
DIP 2-3 : P1 infinity life
DIP 2-4 : Shows Battle Ability, press start to gain energy to MAX
DIP 2-5 : Sound codes                       <Take note of this!!!>
DIP 2-6 : Sound player I guess
DIP 2-7 : Auto Fire ?
DIP 2-8 : Unknown

[Ashram McDuck]

You wouldn't happen to have a link to a useful Tutorial on how to make the best use of all of these dipswitches, would you?

[K.O.D]

Take a look at Sander's : http://sander71113.mgbr.net/tips.html

[Jesuszilla]

Stance and walk can be simplified to 2 CLSNs (head and body). Run CLSN looks too simple; KoF usually uses 2 for that.

I'm slightly stumped with the Run boxes, as in game testing leads me to believe he can be struck anywhere from the shoulder down (even the areas where you'd just be hitting air) so for now that's what I got. Will test this further, of course. His Walk stance I'm pretty sure can be simplified down to 2 CLSNs, but not his Stance. His Stance is at least 3 CLSNs, because you can strike him from the heel up to just above the knee, but you cannot strike his arms and hands. Somewhere around the edges of the chest area is where your hits connect. Will keep testing.

KoF always used 2 CLSNs for stance. I'm sure they wouldn't break that tradition for XI.

[Ashram McDuck]

Stance and walk can be simplified to 2 CLSNs (head and body). Run CLSN looks too simple; KoF usually uses 2 for that.

I'm slightly stumped with the Run boxes, as in game testing leads me to believe he can be struck anywhere from the shoulder down (even the areas where you'd just be hitting air) so for now that's what I got. Will test this further, of course. His Walk stance I'm pretty sure can be simplified down to 2 CLSNs, but not his Stance. His Stance is at least 3 CLSNs, because you can strike him from the heel up to just above the knee, but you cannot strike his arms and hands. Somewhere around the edges of the chest area is where your hits connect. Will keep testing.

KoF always used 2 CLSNs for stance. I'm sure they wouldn't break that tradition for XI.

For their pre-established characters, sure. For a new character who has a wide Stance and a skinny frame, why couldn't they?

Go into Practice Mode against Oswald (with Oswald, how I did it) and crouch kick his heel. Then try to attack his arms, or any area above that heel struck point above the leg, while he's in his Standing stance with either a Standing LP or a LK. Inch forward and see when it connects. The attacks will pass right through his arms and don't actually connect until you're attack is very close to his torso.

[Jesuszilla]

How do you know it's not the attack CLSN? That is the flaw in your reasoning.


And again, SNK is not one to break traditions.

[Ashram McDuck]

How do you know it's not the attack CLSN? That is the flaw in your reasoning.

I tested at multiple distances and made note of where the hitsparks triggered at the varying distances. (this was while trying to find where certain attacks have their attack CLSN boxes, somewhere between the middle of Oswald's card and the palm of his hand for Standing/Crouching LP starting point) I know I'm at a disadvantage by not being able to record all this data (screw you PCSX2) and not look at it frame by frame, so I do monotonous tasks such as this to try and get "as close as I can" data. If you don't think this is accurate (which it could very well be), please by all means show me.

EDIT :: Or I can just show myself. Initial findings trumped. Two CLSN Stance Oswald GET.

[Cybaster]

An idea would be to hit Oswald with a character which is in KOF2K3 (let's take Terry for example) and apply the method you've already done.
If we consider the CLSNs for Terry2k3 and TerryXI are the same (or at least very similar), then you should be able to apply your method.

The problem for now is that you're trying to solve a 2 variables problem with only one equation, which results in infinity solutions. Using a character which you somehow know the CLSNs will allow you to have 1 equation with 1 variable -> 1 solution !

[Ashram McDuck]

Nah, I think my problem is trying to solve a 2 variable problem with only 1 equation which involves 2 eyes, 1 notepad, 3 pencils, and 0 clue! Solution results tend to vary, offer limited while supplies last, so on and so forth.

Seriously though, I think in order to use your method (which I think will work for me for the time being) I'll need to make myself familiar with a MUGEN counterpart that's 2k3 accurate. (Vans' Terry perhaps?)

And I thought the idea was to go to infinity and beyond ...  was it all a lie?

[K.O.D]

It's just a standing CLSN, use Heidern as reference and get it over with.

[Cybaster]

Van's Terry perhaps?

YES !

And I thought the idea was to go to infinity and beyond ...  was it all a lie?

A few Mugen characters divide by zero and thus reach infinity, although I'm not sure it's a good thing.

It's just a standing CLSN, use Heidern as reference and get it over with.

Hey, he's trying to get things as accurate as possible, don't kill his motivation !
Plus, when he gets the correct method for the standing CLSNs, chances are he'll have the correct one to get/guess the other ones.

[Jesuszilla]

his name is Vans...

[Vans]

You can get near-accurate results by making the CLSN yourself, seriously, trying to get accurate CLSN of KOFXI is not worth it.

And my Terry uses 2K2 CLSN. =]

[Ashram McDuck]

It's just a standing CLSN, use Heidern as reference and get it over with.

Hey, he's trying to get things as accurate as possible, don't kill his motivation !
Plus, when he gets the correct method for the standing CLSNs, chances are he'll have the correct one to get/guess the other ones.

That's the hope anyway ... still, best not to count chickens before they hatch. 

his name is Vans...

*Type O*

You can get near-accurate results by making the CLSN yourself, seriously, trying to get accurate CLSN of KOFXI is not worth it.

And my Terry uses 2K2 CLSN. =]

Near-accurate CLSN is all I'm going to get anyway, so I'm just trying to do little bits at a time. Seeing if I'm on the right track helps too.

After looking at your Terry and Eiji it brings a little more perspective to the idea you were trying to show me about having accurate velocities vs. not having them. On that note, question - Go ahead and start working on the attack animations without accurate velocities or wait?

ANYWAY, first post update with v2.0 CLSNs. Hurrah

[Cybaster]

Dunno if you tested with other chars as reference (Terry or Eiji or whoever), but yeah, much better, and looks much more like KOF CLSNs.