The Mugen Fighters Guild - Way to go Dev >:( =P

Loona

Re:Way to go Dev >:( =P

#61 July 20, 2004, 12:45:28 AM

Nothing ever ends

Agent Deku said, July 19, 2004, 12:41:45 AM

this discussion took 5 page full of monster-posts, 1 of them being off-topic about old creators and char updates.

I'd be off-topic if we weren't risking a double-standard attitude regarding Mugen itself and creations made for it - sooner or later we (well, at least the Releases mod, the GMs and admins) will find ourselves confronted with a situation where these standards, which have been the topic of many a conflict in the past (and most likely will still be in the future), will be brought up, and I was hoping to see us reaching some sort of conclusion on this.

But guess what, at least two of the people of this staff who have been in the community for the longest time and who don't seem to share such a liberal approach to these issues don't seem to be bothering much with balancing the views over here... and it's not like this topic has been around for a short time, so brief absences aren't much of an excuse for the occasional reply here...

This would have probably been taken care of ages ago if things had been discussed at the same time, or at least soon after, Dev made a non-public decision regarding the RouHei hack support... lovely...

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the conclusion will either be "we allow it" or "there is no other way, so we allow it", so what are you discussing about?!

I thought it was pretty clear... "if an unnoficial Mugen update is allowed, how similar/different must a situation be when it comes to mugen creation for it to be allowed as well?" - I don't know about you, but I'd rather try and be consistent about the policies of this forum...

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And we can not wait for Nunor's opinion everytime something's to be decided, because he's just too rarely around.

This sort of thing doesn't require Nunor's decision, but I expected some more particupation of the staff, especially from the more veteran members - would you rather have a say on matters now, or disagree/complain later?...

"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise.
Seek what they sought" - Basho

ky0

Re:Way to go Dev >:( =P

#62 July 20, 2004, 12:55:22 AM

Vampire K

Well i already stated previously that we should allow winmugen discussions in the guild and accept its existence. Loona gets a point when he says that it is comparable to char stealing. However, we have to admit that this winmugen hack was necessary for the sake and preservation of the community. It could be like an exception that confirms the rule. Otherwhise, let's just pretend winmugen doesn't exist.

Original mugen creations and Vk episodes:

Last Edit: July 20, 2004, 12:56:06 AM by kusanagi ky0

Just No Point

Re:Way to go Dev >:( =P

#63 July 20, 2004, 03:11:57 AM

The way I am handling it is telling people to go to Dev to discuss WinMugen.

Only creations are allowed to be discussed. If the discussion is simply about WinMugen then it should be done at Dev.

Just like there requests should be done here.

Loona

Re:Way to go Dev >:( =P

#64 July 20, 2004, 04:46:31 AM

Nothing ever ends

kusanagi ky0 said, July 20, 2004, 12:55:22 AM

However, we have to admit that this winmugen hack was necessary for the sake and preservation of the community.

Considering that what some people dislike the most about Mugen is the community, having it cut down to people who don't mind using DOS or using Linux would in a way weed out several "undesireables"...

"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise.
Seek what they sought" - Basho

ky0

Re:Way to go Dev >:( =P

#65 July 20, 2004, 09:37:24 AM

Vampire K

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Considering that what some people dislike the most about Mugen is the community

Those people are the one who deserve to disappear. Loona, you have an answer for everything! So what is your final answer concerning Winmugen?

Original mugen creations and Vk episodes:

XGargoyle

Re:Way to go Dev >:( =P

#66 July 20, 2004, 01:41:37 PM

Hedgehog Whisperer
Red Bull addict

Updates and use of abandoned characters has already been covered through this thread. I think it's completely explained, and I regret the lack of participation in this issue of all staff members but a few ones.

Spending time in how to hanlde this new approach ijn the community is just wasting time. Several creators are already "releasing" (different from making) win/lin-only characters. It's nothing new, those creators were already making win-only compatible characters since the DOS version was abandoned. It's just that they are releasing these creations now, that Rouhei's hack is allowed. In other words, now it's "politically correct" to use it.

This situation reminded me of the 0101->0627 transition. A great part of the community whined about elecbyte changing completely the engine, making tons of character simply not working anymore, and to re-learn most of the code in order to make your own characters. A lot of members of the community stated that they will stick with the 0101 version, that they will boycott Elecbyte by not creating anything for the new engine and crap like this. Others, in the other way, welcomed the change, and saw the improvements that the new version was offering. They didn't doubt at once to stop support for the 0101 and start working on the improved engine.

Now, we have an improved engine that allows more features than the obsolete and btw, illegal to use, DOS version. it's a backstep to stick with the old one.

Regarding the unauthorized update/theft of creations, we cannot avoid it, as we cannot avoid individuals making warehouses. Best we can do is teach the community about how to behave, and hope that these new-taught members will teach the same ethics to other communities where Mugen is not the top priority, but still has some importance. If we teach them the ethic and correct way on how to behave when you want to update old stuff, use other people's stuff, etc, it will benefit us in the long run.

This forum is expected to take a decission, as it was mentioned above: either allow it or not allow it. You cannot deny it's existance and usage. However, either if you allow it or forbid it, we must set the proceudre for updates on old stuff, no matter what this forum regards with winmugen are.

I was asked to look for counseil and feedback for any aspect that could affect the mugen community, however, I don't see any great participation/involvement here. Let's focus on the workflow for updates, since the decission to allow/forbid winmugen discussion is up to admins right now.

XGargoyle: Battle posing since 1979
http://xgargoyle.mgbr.net
http://www.pandorabots.com/pandora/talk?botid=e71c0d43fe35093a <-- Please click that link
http://paypal.me/XGargoyle <-- Donations welcome!

Sepp

He could sit here until he rotted, wallowing in misery-or he could Do something

#67 July 20, 2004, 02:53:54 PM

can see your halo

First XG post in this topic I can pretty much totally agree with.

kusanagi ky0 said, July 20, 2004, 09:37:24 AM

Loona, you have an answer for everything!

That's because he is constantly offered material which can be thrown right back at the poster.

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This would have probably been taken care of ages ago if things had been discussed at the same time, or at least soon after, Dev made a non-public decision regarding the RouHei hack support... lovely...

"What I have done? Oh, no no no, little Solo child. This is about what you have done."

"I haven't done anything!"

Vergere settled back against the chamber's wall a meter away. Slowly, she folded her back-bent knees beneath her, then laced her fingers together in front of her delicately whiskered mouth and stared at him over her knuckles.

After a long, long silence, during which I haven't done anything! echoed in his mind until Jacen's face burned, Vergere said, "Exactly."

She leaned close, as though to share an embarrassing secret. "Is that not the infant's tactic? To wail, and wail, and wail, to wriggle its fingers and kick its heels . . . hoping an adult will notice, and care for it?"

Jacen lowered his head, struggling against sudden hot tears. "What can I do?"

She sat back again and made more of that snuffling noise. "Certainly, among your options is continuing to hang in this room and suffer. And so long as you do that, do you know what will happen?"

Jacen gave her a bruised look. "What?"

"Nothing," she said cheerfully. She spread her hands. "Oh, eventually, you'll go mad, I suppose. If you're lucky. Someday you may even die." Her crest flattened back and became blasterbore gray. "Of old age."

[...]

"Is that why you keep coming here?" he muttered into his folded arms. "To gloat? To humiliate a defeated enemy?"

"Am I gloating? Are we enemies?" Vergere asked, sounding honestly puzzled. "Are you defeated?"

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I thought it was pretty clear... "if an unnoficial Mugen update is allowed, how similar/different must a situation be when it comes to mugen creation for it to be allowed as well?" - I don't know about you, but I'd rather try and be consistent about the policies of this forum...

If nothing else, it could be called an exception. You don't want that, you put guidelines for updating creations up as well - a conclusion on what these could look like was already reached (not only in XG's impression), as well as it was established that nobody here is strictly against it. Chances are that people who by now have not or not often posted here might just have nothing further and worthwhile to say. You want everybody participating, make a poll.

What are you afraid of? That members might discover Internet forums are less glorious democracies rather than one-man shows ruled at will by a handful of administrators who can do just about anything they want to?

Even with the most stupid rules, the responsible dictators will hardly ever be trialed. About the worst thing that can happen to a forum is that its members decide it's time to leave.

That's on first glance a tad besides the problem you point out because I can't see a problem. Who says that WinMUGEN hack toleration with or without news concerning updating other creations makes the forum rules inconsistent? I don't see why it couldn't be treated as a flat exception to the rule, for example.

But *Your Object Of Faith Here* forbid that anything is done that might not make perfect sense to each and everyone and will not equal instant flawless victory in any Supreme Court trial - the accusers might complain once they find the smallest loophole in the rules or *gasp* even leave!

Heh, let's make a public board-wide poll, too!
~

During his years of walking the world, the crooked knight came to find himself bemazed within a dark and traceless wood. In this wood, all paths led equally to death.

The crooked knight did not lose hope; he turned to his various guides for help and direction. His first guide was Youthful Dream. Later, he turned to Friendship, then Duty, and finally Reason, but each left him more lost than the one before.

So the crooked knight gave himself up for dead, and simply sat. He would be sitting there still, but for a breeze that came upon him then: a breeze that smelled of wide-open spaces, of limitless skies and bright suns, of ice and high mountains.

It was the wind from the dark angel's wings.

"Several times now, Achamian thought he had glimpsed golden haloes about Kellhus's hands. He found himself envying those, such as Proyas, who claimed to see them all the time."

--R. Scott Bakker
The Thousandfold Thought (2006)

Loona

Re:Way to go Dev >:( =P

#68 July 20, 2004, 03:04:47 PM

Nothing ever ends

XGargoyle said, July 20, 2004, 01:41:37 PM

Updates and use of abandoned characters has already been covered through this thread. I think it's completely explained, and I regret the lack of participation in this issue of all staff members but a few ones.

"Explained" maybe, but not completely consensual - I suggested some guidelines based on what RouHei did, you came up with an even longer list of requirements, and several others manifested a will to keep things simple.
Given all you've posted before, one would expect you to at least comment on the comments that were made then... How are we to reach an agreement if people who represent the most different points of view don't at least try to talk things into a reasonable compromise?...

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Spending time in how to hanlde this new approach ijn the community is just wasting time.

I'd rather see it as saving time - discussing it now should make things simpler to handle in the future.

Unfortunately it seems that at least a few here aren't too interested in the future... and some of them have been around long enough to know that some dillemas will eventually present themselves, so it'd be expected of them to voice all objections and approvals they may find important...

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This situation reminded me of the 0101->0627 transition. A great part of the community whined about elecbyte changing completely the engine, making tons of character simply not working anymore, and to re-learn most of the code in order to make your own characters. A lot of members of the community stated that they will stick with the 0101 version, that they will boycott Elecbyte by not creating anything for the new engine and crap like this. Others, in the other way, welcomed the change, and saw the improvements that the new version was offering. They didn't doubt at once to stop support for the 0101 and start working on the improved engine.

It's quite different from that situation, and you know it - the fact that Elecbyte was around made and that that latest version came directly from them made a whole deal of a difference.
Besides, there were never any restrictions about releasing Linux-compatible stuff.

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Now, we have an improved engine that allows more features than the obsolete and btw, illegal to use, DOS version. it's a backstep to stick with the old one.

Now that's an interesting use of the word "illegal" if I ever saw one, given the circumstances...

And technically a backstep would be to use a version that's older than the latest, more widely spread, DOS version...

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Regarding the unauthorized update/theft of creations, we cannot avoid it, as we cannot avoid individuals making warehouses. Best we can do is teach the community about how to behave, and hope that these new-taught members will teach the same ethics to other communities where Mugen is not the top priority, but still has some importance. If we teach them the ethic and correct way on how to behave when you want to update old stuff, use other people's stuff, etc, it will benefit us in the long run.

There has always been an effort to teach people to do things right around here - what invariably will come up some day is a situation not unlike the hack's, where the creator couldn't be reached for asking permission and an update was made anyway, possibly credited.
Then we'll be tested for coherence of policies, and I'd rather have the staff agreeing on what we can accept or not, regarless of who did that update, where (s)he's from and how long that individual's been around.

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This forum is expected to take a decission, as it was mentioned above: either allow it or not allow it. You cannot deny it's existance and usage.

Like with conversions from recent games, as was the case not that long ago with KoF2003 and others?...

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However, either if you allow it or forbid it, we must set the proceudre for updates on old stuff, no matter what this forum regards with winmugen are.

Heck, I could define some guidelines myself and not give a damn about what anyone else thinks, but I'm trying to encourage some particupation on these matters - where were you when myself and others commented on the list of things you osted not that long ago as possible requirements for an update to be accepted?...

"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise.
Seek what they sought" - Basho

Just No Point

Re:Way to go Dev >:( =P

#69 July 20, 2004, 03:54:41 PM

Here is a start.

Q-Bee made by M@ppy, updated by ROQUE.

We could start the new exceptions immediately.

I could contact him and we could use his work as an opening example.

Here is the reply I got after asking him about Q-Bee.

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Hello,

Sorry for this late reply : it is the first time in months I can access to this forum .

Yeah Winane informed me that there had been some discussion about me releasing Q-Bee without his permissions. I doubt he will ever come back again but I decided to calm down people here by remaking her private. I've had a look just now at the forum and it seems that it worked.

That was the only element of the game for which I hadn't a permission though. For the rest, I'm totally "clean" (I've the mails of the different authors I used the work to confirm if it was ever necessary).

Since I'm not sure to be able to check again this message box before long (I'm currently using a different Internet line than usual), you can use my mail instead if you need to contact me : sunny@netcourrier.com.

See ya!

As for WinMugen... this is taking too long. Lets's try to speed some of the new issues up can't we? Between this long thread and the BlackJack long thread I bet the new mods are thinking we don't know what the hell we are doing around here

[sign=2]I promise you guys this is a recent debacle(sp)[/sign]

ky0

Re:Way to go Dev >:( =P

#70 July 20, 2004, 06:51:17 PM

Vampire K

I think we are discussing too much here. Here is what i suggest. we make a poll in the staff, stating whether we should allow winmugen or not. We vote , then after 3 or 4 days for example, we see the results. what do you think of that? i guess it's much more efficient than discussing for 6 pages quoting and countering each other's arguments.

Original mugen creations and Vk episodes:

Last Edit: July 20, 2004, 06:52:48 PM by kusanagi ky0

Just No Point

Re:Way to go Dev >:( =P

#71 July 20, 2004, 06:54:33 PM

Although I know the outcome I agree.

XGargoyle

Re:Way to go Dev >:( =P

#72 July 20, 2004, 09:44:00 PM

Hedgehog Whisperer
Red Bull addict

I second that

walt

Re:Way to go Dev >:( =P

#73 July 21, 2004, 12:55:11 AM

SNK is life

So, who makes the new thread

Loona

Re:Way to go Dev >:( =P

#74 July 21, 2004, 01:40:09 AM

Nothing ever ends

Only now did I notice Sepp's post... oh well...

If there's a new thread, it'll be to discuss the abandoned Mugen creation update/use issue that was brought up here - I guess we can still do that in a thread of its own after WinMugen itself gets allowed around here (yep, I'll be making the necessary rule tweaking

), since many don't seem inclined to discuss that in this thread.

"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise.
Seek what they sought" - Basho

X

Re:Way to go Dev >:( =P

#75 July 24, 2004, 12:00:59 AM

The Dreamslayer said, July 20, 2004, 03:54:41 PM

Between this long thread and the BlackJack long thread I bet the new mods are thinking we don't know what the hell we are doing around here

It's about time someone said it.

6 pages worth of aggravation - half of it comprised of posts longer than most college essays and almost nothing solved.

Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill...

walt

Re:Way to go Dev >:( =P

#76 July 24, 2004, 12:19:35 AM

SNK is life

Dude, we already know this Gohan-long posts/arguments suck

it's just that it used to be taboo to say anything about it

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Loona

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ky0

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XGargoyle

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Sepp

He could sit here until he rotted, wallowing in misery-or he could Do something

Loona

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Just No Point

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ky0

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walt

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X

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walt

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