The Mugen Fighters Guild - In-game Transformations into Other Characters

Jesuszilla

Re: In-game Transformations into Other Characters

#21 November 10, 2014, 05:46:06 am

Loyal to the Game

I don't think it will allow you to specify numbers that high. Animations are signed ints IINM (why, I don't fucking know).

yah, both animatinos and sprites(group,no) are signed ints sprites are very small ints while animations are higher, tho I think teh cap is 16 bit for sprite stuff, 32 bit for animation stuff (so take one 0 off if I went overboard, iirc that's hwo I did it, it's been a few years)

Cyanide

Re: In-game Transformations into Other Characters

#23 November 11, 2014, 05:55:23 am

Legendary XIII
I am the eye of the storm to come!

Dunno, i did a rather long statedef call once and it accepted that. Well over a trillion I forget if i tested animations. Starting out at 10000 or even 100k would be acceptable start points for this.

In M.U.G.E.N there is no magic button

They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance.

Odb718

Re: In-game Transformations into Other Characters

#24 November 17, 2014, 11:43:57 am

Shame on you!

In my Yun&Yang character, one doesnt transform into another, but it's the same idea.
I just used 20000+ added to all anim/states.
I made the back up player un-throwable, because throws all come down to a lot of things. Things your character cant control. head/mid positions, which sprite is being displayed, those have a major effect. Having a character battle against other random characters just wouldnt work.
But I'd imagine you could make a simple system based on how I do it. (not that my system is simple to begin with)
nothitby all throws, but add in some authors/character names that allow the throws in your character.
In their character you could add 20000 to the animation if P2's name is "yourcharacter" for all throws.
Then you could create the animations just tacking on 20000 to the numbers in the air file. Simple copy/replace/paste job.
In their character the animation would be blank, but your character it should fill in fine.
It'd be 3 steps and you could allow throws for an individual character.... in theory.... I may test it out with my Ibuki and Ryu and release them all if it works properly.

Obviously if you released the character like this it wouldnt work so well against people's unedited versions of the enemy. So if I do go ahead and someone hadnt updated, it'd look ugly, or blank, or just break entirely.

vVv N00bSaibot & Muramasa RoofTop vVv

desertstorm1909

Re: In-game Transformations into Other Characters

#25 November 18, 2014, 07:46:34 pm

I know nothing about coding or spriting, but i just had an idea, instead of making all new sprites for a character like Goku to go super saiyian why don't people just do a simple palette change and have the normal hair and ssj hair as a helper and switch between?

Bastard Mami

Re: In-game Transformations into Other Characters

#26 November 18, 2014, 08:09:32 pm

because the hair will be all over the place when the character gets grabbed, plu s a lot of other problems created becasue the helper code is executed before the character code so it becomes harder to coordinate, it's easier to just use alt. animations.

Rent

Re: In-game Transformations into Other Characters

#27 November 22, 2014, 03:19:53 am

GEE GEE

I've coded a transformable character before/ in the process of coding a transformable character. Enemy Custom states are a huge problem. But instead of creating an entire game around transforms, I used an anti-custom state code to deny entry into custom states. It switches the character back to his own set of states once the code detects he is no longer in his own set of state (using a comparison between statedef -2 and -3).

custom states give a lot of flexibility to Mugen, but we don't necessarily need them - there are also targetbinds that can be used as an alternative. Until mugen gets transform support, I'd rather deny the enemy's use of custom states against a transformable character, than to abolish the use of transformable characters or to only have them playable under specific games.

In addition, I believe mugen's future lies in multi-characters, entire games encapsulated within 1 character. we've explored an infinite number of character themes, the next step would be to combine them into sets of themes.

wat.

Last Edit: November 22, 2014, 03:27:35 am by Rent

Jesuszilla

Re: In-game Transformations into Other Characters

#28 November 22, 2014, 03:39:09 am

Loyal to the Game

Rent said, November 22, 2014, 03:19:53 am

custom states give a lot of flexibility to Mugen, but we don't necessarily need them - there are also targetbinds that can be used as an alternative.

what the hell are you talking about?

Rent said, November 22, 2014, 03:19:53 am

Until mugen gets transform support, I'd rather deny the enemy's use of custom states against a transformable character, than to abolish the use of transformable characters or to only have them playable under specific games.

No, no, NO. Do not do this.

Cyanide

Re: In-game Transformations into Other Characters

#29 November 22, 2014, 04:06:24 am

Legendary XIII
I am the eye of the storm to come!

Removing the option of custom states for your opponent destroys a huge number of moves. I assume you never play grapplers. Cos this nullifies 90% of their attacks. It kills all throws. It kills certain attacks that display fancy hit anims like stun or dizzy. It breaks more than it fixes. You either have your character changing back, briefly to the non transformed state, or you remove most of a characters move set. Which is more problematic?

In M.U.G.E.N there is no magic button

They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance.

Rent

Re: In-game Transformations into Other Characters

#30 November 22, 2014, 06:18:52 am

GEE GEE

Well, the point of obfuscating enemy custom states is to get rid of potential bugs against new characters. If custom state obfuscation increases the amount of bugs, then I'm wrong. But if it takes away gameplay features of a certain framework -- then that is a preference. We do it all the time -- with boss characters, superarmors, mini-games in exchange for novel experiences.

As a developer of a transformable character, I'd prefer to have my transform re-interpret entry into a custom state as a normal hit, than to have it go haywire in a custom state. I can't have my transform malfunctioning against another character because that other character wasn't conditioned. There is a lot of gameplay value when using custom states. But there is also a lot of value in transformable characters. The two just have a hard time coexisting.

I suppose this argument is hard because we have different assumptions about what we want/expect out of mugen: We establish a specific framework for a set of characters to achieve fairness, BUT it limits diversity. ie. skills grappling could be the deciding factor in who wins a match. Without this framework, developers are free to create what they want, but then matchups become completely unfair. So ultimately, it comes down to our preferences about what we want out of the game as individuals.

wat.

Cyanide

Re: In-game Transformations into Other Characters

#31 November 22, 2014, 07:31:04 am

Legendary XIII
I am the eye of the storm to come!

You character will be increasing bugs when the grappler has 90% of his moveset NULLIFIED so your character can stay in a fancy sprite form. The way around this is not up to the grappler. His moves work perfectly on most of mugen. And in fact work on your character provided it's not transformed.

At that point, the problem is yours. "works on everything except X" means X is the problem. In this case, your solution is X.

In M.U.G.E.N there is no magic button

They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance.

Neocide

Re: In-game Transformations into Other Characters

#32 November 22, 2014, 07:34:49 am

Smooches

also transformations don't hold as high a value as custom states do, I'm sorry but looking fancy(trans) does not outweigh doing fancy things(custom states)

Rent

Re: In-game Transformations into Other Characters

#33 November 22, 2014, 09:41:50 am

GEE GEE

actually, the more I think about it, you're right, it's a disservice to take away an opponent's features, for a transform's visual consistency. and it ultimately hurts the game's experience. At first I was thinking that if it's acceptable for boss characters, then it should be acceptable for transforms. but the difference is that boss characters are intended this way, whereas transforms had to be augmented due to a fundamental flaw in Mugen's design.

Truth be told, there really was never a concrete method to handle a transform in a custom state. leaving us with really sucky options. But after reading the post again, I really like ZzEzZ's solution. because it gives the users an interpretive transition between the custom state and the transform.

ZzEzZ said, November 07, 2014, 06:46:28 pm

Whenever the transformed character goes into a custom state you can flash the screen and add small FX to your character (energy leaving them, etc.) under a helper or state -2, so that it looks like they were forced to detransform by losing power. Then when they come back into their own states (transformed animations, etc.) have the special FX reverse, so it looks like they gained power back and retransformed. That's the best solution I could come up with for the transformation flaw.

wat.

XGargoyle

Re: In-game Transformations into Other Characters

#34 November 22, 2014, 01:23:49 pm

Hedgehog Whisperer
Red Bull addict

Rent said, November 22, 2014, 09:41:50 am

whereas transforms had to be augmented due to a fundamental flaw in Mugen's design.

It's not a fundamental flaw in Mugen's design. It's a fundamental flaw in everyone in trying to make Mugen a universal system compatible with everybody's creations.

If you are making your own full game, there are no problems at all with custom states. So, please stop saying that the inability to make character transformations are a mugen's inherent flaw

XGargoyle: Battle posing since 1979
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O Ilusionista

Re: In-game Transformations into Other Characters

#35 November 26, 2014, 12:50:21 pm

A living Mugen dinossaur :)
23 years of Mugen O_o

Quote

No, no, NO. Do not do this.

I don't see a problem with that.

Quote

It's not a fundamental flaw in Mugen's design. It's a fundamental flaw in everyone in trying to make Mugen a universal system compatible with everybody's creations.

If you are making your own full game, there are no problems at all with custom states. So, please stop saying that the inability to make character transformations are a mugen's inherent flaw

You got a point here. But maybe this could be done on the future (but I really doubt it).
One solution is like OpenBOR does: you simply state in the character header the name of the other characters your character can transform into. Its a full transformation, IOW all the sprites, codes, animations, sounds are taken from the new char.

And there are some other cool options, like:
- Choose if you take all the animations (in Mugen terms, States) from the new character or mix with the old ones
- Choose how the character will revert back to the normal state (after a knockdown? after consecutive hits? never? time?)

Snakebyte

Re: In-game Transformations into Other Characters

#36 November 26, 2014, 02:38:29 pm

Somewhat related question that's bothered me for a while: Is there any simple way to make multiple characters take up a single character slot, without in-game transforms? I know many characters have different modes selected by palettes, but that's not really the same thing. Is there any way to change this to selecting completely different characters by pressing a different button on the same space on the select screen?

XGargoyle

Re: In-game Transformations into Other Characters

#37 November 26, 2014, 05:29:46 pm

Hedgehog Whisperer
Red Bull addict

you can have the character use different sprites based on the button pressed on the select screen. But it's not different than having a character transform in the middle of the fight. Whenever your character is placed into a custom state, it will revert to the base required sprites, in other words displaying a different character than the one you selected.

Bastard Mami

Re: In-game Transformations into Other Characters

#38 November 26, 2014, 05:37:01 pm

XGargoyle said, November 22, 2014, 01:23:49 pm

It's not a fundamental flaw in Mugen's design. It's a fundamental flaw in everyone in trying to make Mugen a universal system compatible with everybody's creations.

no, I agree with the guy, dunno if it wsa ikemen, xnamugen or infinitycat, but one of those had/got suggested a spriteno/groupno trigger as well as a changeSprite sctrl to fix that.

Cyanide

Re: In-game Transformations into Other Characters

#39 November 27, 2014, 07:48:56 am

Legendary XIII
I am the eye of the storm to come!

I know i suggested that for mugen. And it probably was suggested for all of those. But the problem is none of those are hugely popular. It's a shame xnamugen wasn't continued with. Easily the best one for compatibility and progress.

And the source is out there if people wanted it.

In M.U.G.E.N there is no magic button

They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance.

Lichtbringer

Re: In-game Transformations into Other Characters

#40 November 27, 2014, 09:55:44 pm

XGargoyle said, November 26, 2014, 05:29:46 pm

you can have the character use different sprites based on the button pressed on the select screen. But it's not different than having a character transform in the middle of the fight. Whenever your character is placed into a custom state, it will revert to the base required sprites, in other words displaying a different character than the one you selected.

XGargoyle I think that Snakebyte means a feature that some hacked moleboxed mugen games like KoF Wing are using, where you can have different Charackters on the same slot on the select screen.

For example if you select Kyo and Press A it will normaly load "Kyo.def" but if you Press B it would load the "Iori.def" instead, but afaik that is not possible with normal Mugen versions right now, and there is at the moment no way to find out what they changed to make it possible, since the guys who where able to do it are always moleboxing there games.^^

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