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What's the appeal of ikemen go (plus ultra or whatever fork) over mugen? (Read 13229 times)

Started by Tabris666, January 21, 2024, 07:07:46 pm
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Tabris666

What's the appeal of ikemen go (plus ultra or whatever fork) over mugen?
#1  January 21, 2024, 07:07:46 pm
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Well i still don't get the appeal and hype of ikemen go over mugen,tested it for a year still same issues over regular ikemen.
Until now i have been unable to see something that will make me change over mugen 1.1.
The only appeal i have seen is:
>network play
>64 bit
besides that i don't see anything at all and seems more like a mugen specially made for chibi characters (we aren't in early 2000s for those limitations).
Mugen characters tend to bug out quite a lot specially chars that have movements like tatsumaki kenpukyaku which once made will corner the opponent creating an infinite move,other issue is stages and characters aren't the proper scale and tend to look bigger then what they are (not an issue on regular old ikemen).
For example some will say "lua scripts are the advantage" but you can use lua scripts on 1.1,other could say "internal shaders are the advantage" you can also use internal shaders on 1.1,others will say "you can have a specially made damage display" yet this was available on 1.1 (it was made by sxvector on one of his screenpacks yet said screenpack is down),as you see there is nothing in favor of ikemen go besides the 64  bit and networking,add004 can add some features on mugen 1.1,hloader made a great guard break system for 1.0 (that can be used on 1.1) so still don't get the appeal of ikemen go.
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Re: What's the appeal of ikemen go (plus ultra or whatever fork) over mugen?
#2  January 21, 2024, 11:06:06 pm
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Ikemen is open source and in constant development.

If you prefer to stay in an obsolete piece of 20+years old software together with poorly coded characters, based on your comments, it's your decision.
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Kernel panic

Re: What's the appeal of ikemen go (plus ultra or whatever fork) over mugen?
#3  January 21, 2024, 11:35:34 pm
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Hey Gargoyle can you fix your signature please? I wanna download some chars!

Tabris666

Re: What's the appeal of ikemen go (plus ultra or whatever fork) over mugen?
#4  January 22, 2024, 02:24:23 am
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XGargoyle said, January 21, 2024, 11:06:06 pm
Ikemen is open source and in constant development.

If you prefer to stay in an obsolete piece of 20+years old software together with poorly coded characters, based on your comments, it's your decision.
while i know is open source thing is it doesn't offer much in amount of things you can do,for example hacking mugen 1.1 and adding features would be better in this case.
i just wondered what is the appeal of ikemen go without bias.
for example lot of stuff can be added to mugen to increase features via lua,asi plugins and so on which gives more pros to use mugen against ikemen go,this is why i said i still don't understand the hype for ikemen go since it works worse then original ikemen and mugen 1.1 in fact i have seen more cons then pros when it comes to ikemen go.
for example since most people hyping it say "is a replacement to mugen and has more features and you can use all the content for mugen 1.1" yet sadly this isn't true,the only stages that work kind fine are the stages by shiyo kakuge,the characters well the only ones working kinda fine are chibi characters,and you can't use screenpacks of mugen 1.1 without crashing,most characters exclusive to 1.1 have issues when you use them on ikemen go.
i understand your point of mugen 1.1 being 10 years old yet if it works better then ikemen go what is the point of using a replacement that doesn't work as close as mugen 1.1.
let's just remember that winmugen era came with lot of content even more when the engine got hacked and improved.
For example which 1.1 screenpack is the closest to club syn screenpack,sadly there is none that uses the whole power of mugen 1.1 right now,are there custom common cns,fightfx and so on that use the whole power of mugen 1.1 there is none,how many tag systems are that use the whole power of mugen 1.1 sadly there is none right now (in winmugen we had unoshe and red navy tag system being the more famous along add002,add003,add004 yet in 1.0 and 1.1 there is nothing like it).
Can an slg game system be done on ikemen go like what was made for mugen 1.1,sadly no one has done it,storymode is for winmugen and 1.1 but there is nothing similar on ikemen go.
As you see is more appealing trying to uncover the whole potential of mugen 1.1,i tested ikemen go for a year yet still can't find the appeal of it besides the 64bit that bypass the 32bit limitation of mugen 1.1 yet if characters,lifebars and so on don't work as intented there what is even the point of using the open source alternative.
Is kinda similar to the other alternative whose developers jumped in the ikemen bandwagon dropping any effort of their open source mugen engine.
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DeathScythe

Re: What's the appeal of ikemen go (plus ultra or whatever fork) over mugen?
#5  January 22, 2024, 04:20:03 am
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Kernel panic said, January 21, 2024, 11:35:34 pm
Hey Gargoyle can you fix your signature please? I wanna download some chars!

Completely off topic. You could have sent a PM.

Tabris666 said, January 21, 2024, 07:07:46 pm

Many of the things you said about mugen are workarounds. You have all these features natively on Ikemen, no workarounds needed. But if you want me to go about the goodies, here are some of my favorites:

- Many, and I mean MANY new lifebar features, like point system, guard/stun bar, usage of more than one sprite, red life, and so on.
- Multiple characters in a single slot, lovely for characters with many modes.
- MODULES
- different stages for round 1 and 2, good for stages with time of the day variations
- Many new sctrl for more control over the character
- Limitations from Mugen are lifted, like the usage of variables and so on
- Secret bosses and more control over AI scaling in the arcade modes
- Paths and rivals
- Stage previews
- Animated portraits
- Submenus
- NATIVE TAG AND 4v4
- Separated localcoord for lifebars, no need to adjust a diferent resolution lifebar manually to match your screenpack

And the list goes on. Honestly, if your PC can run it, only the fact that it is being constantly updated is enough to consider changing.

Foobs

Re: What's the appeal of ikemen go (plus ultra or whatever fork) over mugen?
#6  January 22, 2024, 04:36:56 am
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I realize this is a low effort bait thread, but there's never a bad time to dispel myths.

The appeal of Ikemen is that it basically everything that is tortuous or only viable in a full game environment can be done more easily and universally in ikemen, and a lot shit that are fullstop impossible in mugen are viable in ikemen.

To list a few:

- Ikemen now has support for REAL 3d stages.
- Attached chars makes interactive stages infinitely easier to implement.
- Real-ass characters transformations are doable in ikemen.
- Characters can save and load external information to external files in ikemen.
- Ikemen allows you to run multiple common states on all characters. All the goodies the engine comes packed like stun, guardbreak and tag use this.
- Ikemen gives you a real scripting language with functions, temporary variables and loops and other useful things that make coding *not* be a harrowing experience.
- There's dozens and dozens of new triggers and state controllers; there's far more options for screenpacks and lifebars.

Quote
Well i still don't get the appeal and hype of ikemen go over mugen,tested it for a year still same issues over regular ikemen.

If you truly tested the original szz ikemen and ikemen go in the past year you'd realize they're different as night and day. There's been literally thousands of changes since Suehiro moved the project to Go. 0.98.2 to 0.99 alone feels like a huge leap and those are only like one and a half year apart; the original ikemen build was abandoned over 4 years ago.

Quote
for example lot of stuff can be added to mugen to increase features via lua,asi plugins and so on which gives more pros to use mugen against ikemen go,this is why i said i still don't understand the hype for ikemen go since it works worse then original ikemen and mugen 1.1 in fact i have seen more cons then pros when it comes to ikemen go.
   
No you can't easily add new features and plugins because mugen 1.1 is still a black box of uncracked propietary code. In over a decade the only person who has made any meaningful changes to mugen is Ermaccer with mugenhook. It's a dead end.

Quote
for example since most people hyping it say "is a replacement to mugen and has more features and you can use all the content for mugen 1.1" yet sadly this isn't true,the only stages that work kind fine are the stages by shiyo kakuge,the characters well the only ones working kinda fine are chibi characters,and you can't use screenpacks of mugen 1.1 without crashing,most characters exclusive to 1.1 have issues when you use them on ikemen go.
   
This is bullshit. I've tested hundreds of characters and stages from the winmugen and mugen 1.0 eras (none of them "chibi") and by and large they all worked as intended. The only memorable cases where they did not work as intended was due to characters using bad code or stages with zoom having the wrong zoffset, but that has been fixed in 0.99. Screenpacks have worked without a hitch for years.

There are still some weird edge cases, but the average mugen user would not be able to tell the difference between a character running on ikemen versus mugen.

Tabris666

Re: What's the appeal of ikemen go (plus ultra or whatever fork) over mugen?
#7  January 22, 2024, 05:02:10 am
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Foobs said, January 22, 2024, 04:36:56 am
I realize this is a low effort bait thread, but there's never a bad time to dispel myths.

The appeal of Ikemen is that it basically everything that is tortuous or only viable in a full game environment can be done more easily and universally in ikemen, and a lot shit that are fullstop impossible in mugen are viable in ikemen.

To list a few:

- Ikemen now has support for REAL 3d stages.
- Attached chars makes interactive stages infinitely easier to implement.
- Real-ass characters transformations are doable in ikemen.
- Characters can save and load external information to external files in ikemen.
- Ikemen allows you to run multiple common states on all characters. All the goodies the engine comes packed like stun, guardbreak and tag use this.
- Ikemen gives you a real scripting language with functions, temporary variables and loops and other useful things that make coding *not* be a harrowing experience.
- There's dozens and dozens of new triggers and state controllers; there's far more options for screenpacks and lifebars.

Quote
Well i still don't get the appeal and hype of ikemen go over mugen,tested it for a year still same issues over regular ikemen.

If you truly tested the original szz ikemen and ikemen go in the past year you'd realize they're different as night and day. There's been literally thousands of changes since Suehiro moved the project to Go. 0.98.2 to 0.99 alone feels like a huge leap and those are only like one and a half year apart; the original ikemen build was abandoned over 4 years ago.

Quote
for example lot of stuff can be added to mugen to increase features via lua,asi plugins and so on which gives more pros to use mugen against ikemen go,this is why i said i still don't understand the hype for ikemen go since it works worse then original ikemen and mugen 1.1 in fact i have seen more cons then pros when it comes to ikemen go.
   
No you can't easily add new features and plugins because mugen 1.1 is still a black box of uncracked propietary code. In over a decade the only person who has made any meaningful changes to mugen is Ermaccer with mugenhook. It's a dead end.

Quote
for example since most people hyping it say "is a replacement to mugen and has more features and you can use all the content for mugen 1.1" yet sadly this isn't true,the only stages that work kind fine are the stages by shiyo kakuge,the characters well the only ones working kinda fine are chibi characters,and you can't use screenpacks of mugen 1.1 without crashing,most characters exclusive to 1.1 have issues when you use them on ikemen go.
   
This is bullshit. I've tested hundreds of characters and stages from the winmugen and mugen 1.0 eras (none of them "chibi") and by and large they all worked as intended. The only memorable cases where they did not work as intended was due to characters using bad code or stages with zoom having the wrong zoffset, but that has been fixed in 0.99. Screenpacks have worked without a hitch for years.

There are still some weird edge cases, but the average mugen user would not be able to tell the difference between a character running on ikemen versus mugen.
i have tested lot of stuff on ikemen go yet still don't find the appeal,stages work really bad (look smaller then they should),characters have the issue of being bigger then what they look on mugen.
as i said is kinda hard to find the appeal.
about mugen being a black box not really is just people not wanting to change or learn and still using same old chibi chars while complaining of loading times and issues when using modern character (still haven't seen people releasing shaders for mugen when it can be done or lua scripts since mugen 1.1 use lua).
errmancer did a good stuff with the asi plugin and was the hint to users "you can add asi plugins to mugen" and it kinda works similar to those features you mentioned from ikemen go,the nijikaku comunity made more progress with mugen 1.1 then western side learning what can be achieved with the engine something people didn't seem to take kindly,guard break  well we have that since 1.0 is a copy paste code made by hloader over a decade ago (duracelleur did something similar) yet i don't see people using it for lifebars kinda similar to the stun code.
sadly most people don't even bother checking the current documentation available for 1.1 yet they hurried up to ikemen go simply because it added stuff with lua instead of they making the changes manually.
hidden boss can be added to mugen is not that hard and won't be even selectable (just remembering the classic mugen darkness game made this point clear) so you see the point.
sadly is more about people wanting to do less then doing things for mugen (why make a plugin or lua script on mugen 1.1 when they can simply add a line on ikemen go to have different stages for a fight and call it a day)
for example add004 has the best system of all yet people don't use it for reasons,same as increasing the limits of mugen.cfg you know the limits can get higher then the limitations of ikemen go.
For example characters transformations are something that has been done since winmugen era is not something of other world so i don't think is something you can say "is only doable on ikemen go" (just remembering KOF chris that transformed into each of his versions was cool,same as gohan going from normal to SSJ2 and lot of other more).
For example lot of the stuff mentioned was doable on paintown betas before they moved to ikemen go yet no one wanted to use it.
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Last Edit: January 22, 2024, 05:15:59 am by Tabris666

Foobs

Re: What's the appeal of ikemen go (plus ultra or whatever fork) over mugen?
#8  January 22, 2024, 05:21:25 am
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about mugen being a black box not really is just people not wanting to change or learn and still using same old chibi chars while complaining of loading times and issues when using modern character (still haven't seen people releasing shaders for mugen when it can be done or lua scripts since mugen 1.1 use lua).

No, you haven't seen people do any of those things because they're lazy, they haven't done them because mugen *is* a black box. Ermaccer is basically a wizard who has hacked like every mainline Mortal Kombat game, very few people can do what he does, and it's not reasonable to expect any to pop up in the future.

Quote
well we have that since 1.0 is a copy paste code made by hloader over a decade ago (duracelleur did something similar) yet i don't see people using it for lifebars kinda similar to the stun code.

Yes, and that is busy work, that's why most people don't use it. Shiyo had to make his own patching tool to make add004's features even usable in mugen, he later ported the system to ikemen taking advantage of the new engine features and the patcher wasn't necessary.

Quote
hidden boss can be added to mugen is not that hard and won't be even selectable (just remembering the classic mugen darkness game made this point clear) so you see the point.

Bosses can show up on picking randomselect and survival modes; this is not an issue in Ikemen.

Quote
For example characters transformations are something that has been done since winmugen era is not something of other world so i don't think is something you can say "is only doable on mugen" (just remembering KOF chris that transformed into each of his versions was cool,same as gohan going from normal to SSJ2 and lot of other more).

Real transformations that fully change a character's look like Kid Goku->SSJ4 Goku don't work in mugen outside a full game, the instant a characters is put on a custom state like a normal throw the character reverses to its nomal gethit sprites.

Quite honestly you don't know what you're talking about and most of your criticism of ikemen is ridiculous and boils down to "why won't people make mugen 1.1 as cool as it is in my fanfiction".

Creative Colossus

Re: What's the appeal of ikemen go (plus ultra or whatever fork) over mugen?
#9  January 22, 2024, 06:13:37 am
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Ikemen GO works on macOS with almost no extra tinkering needed.

lui

Re: What's the appeal of ikemen go (plus ultra or whatever fork) over mugen?
#10  January 22, 2024, 08:06:36 am
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Ikemen has a native pause button that you can remap anywhere and has command lists.


Mugen doesn't.

That's already enough.

This thread sucks and is poorly thought out bait.

MR. IBZS II

Re: What's the appeal of ikemen go (plus ultra or whatever fork) over mugen?
#11  January 22, 2024, 09:12:40 am
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XGargoyle said, January 21, 2024, 11:06:06 pm
Ikemen is open source and in constant development.

If you prefer to stay in an obsolete piece of 20+years old software together with poorly coded characters, based on your comments, it's your decision.

Crap, poorly coded characters make nearly my entire 1000 character roster, was considering to switch to Ikemen too.

Kasasagi

Re: What's the appeal of ikemen go (plus ultra or whatever fork) over mugen?
#12  January 22, 2024, 10:09:47 am
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Also: Mugen 1.1 has bugs, which are fixed in Ikemen.

My personal favourites:

- boundhigh for zooming stages is broken in Mugen, while it is consistent in Ikemen.
- the stage camera in Mugen 1.1 will just not go down below a certain level, while it will go as low as you want in Ikemen.

Lasombra Demon

Re: What's the appeal of ikemen go (plus ultra or whatever fork) over mugen?
#13  January 22, 2024, 11:08:16 pm
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Foobs already covered most stuff, but the appeal of ZSS is huge, essentially because it's a real programming language that is waaaay easier to debug (nested if conditionals are a dream to read code compared to CNS triggers, ugh).

Oh, and extra Commonfiles.

Also, OP obviously has neved coded anything using any of the new features of IKGo.

PS: TRUE UNIVERSAL AND MODULAR INTERACTIVE STAGES

(you know I had to say it)

Basara Lapis

Re: What's the appeal of ikemen go (plus ultra or whatever fork) over mugen?
#14  January 23, 2024, 01:23:12 am
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I'm not familiar with IKEMEN just because I prefer old technology (those who know me got it since a lot of time ago), but even I can say that this thread was made for bait only. As I say, I'm not familiar with it, but I can't deny that this is very advanced level and a step forward to MUGEN world, so treat it as OP says is a disrespect not just to creators who made IKEMEN and work on it but normal users who prefer it over normal MUGEN

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BeastwithFriends

Re: What's the appeal of ikemen go (plus ultra or whatever fork) over mugen?
#15  January 23, 2024, 05:07:25 am
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They're not very flashy, but I really like all of the added parameters for the select def. Even something as simple as exclude=1 is really powerful. A lot of ai patches make characters unplayable. Using the exclude parameter, I've been adding the patched/uncontrollable characters to arcade mode, while excluding them from the select screen. Then, I'll make the the un-patched versions selectable. It's like the best of both worlds.

Like everyone else, I do love being able to load multiple characters in one slot. I love just being able to cycle through every Ryu in existence or trying to make the ultimate collection in one build.

I think I got into IKEMEN originally because of Lasombra Demon's stage interactives. I couldn't pass up having World Heroes death matches or arcade-accurate Samurai Showdown and Street Fighter 2 stages.

All the different tag patches have been crazy fun too, my favorite being POTs active tag.

That being said, I'm still using version 98.2.

Version 99 broke too many things in my build (all of Umehie's SF3 characters), but I'll probably jump over eventually. Those 3-D stages look too pretty!

beterhans

Re: What's the appeal of ikemen go (plus ultra or whatever fork) over mugen?
#16  January 23, 2024, 12:08:36 pm
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ikemen go is good for Mugen character/stage/screen pack developer.

from a developer point of view.

IKEMEN go have but mugen don't have
1. see a bug
IKEMEN go: you can talk to develper and submit the bug and have a small chance it get fixed.
MUGEN: you have no one talk to.   you can only avoid the bug.

2. new features
Interactive stage (things can be broken for the stages)
native tag mode
3D stage support
net play
and a new language to write characters.
and more.
(but if you use the new feature, the character or stage won't be usable on mugen)


Check this video out,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJ06YJMIRwU
Last Edit: January 23, 2024, 12:14:36 pm by beterhans

oraora?

Re: What's the appeal of ikemen go (plus ultra or whatever fork) over mugen?
#17  January 23, 2024, 02:48:06 pm
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For me, I have read in the ikemen go github wiki or in this site that ikemen go still has the random crash problem much like mugen 1.0 or mugen 1.1 which is disappointing to me. I rarely see this problem happen back in the dos era and for the old window mugen era before 1.0 except the old window mugen era, it had the random freeze problem when using keyboard to play. However in year 2008 when I was playing old window mugen with my oversea cousin, it doesn't have the random freeze problem because we were using usb gamepad or fight stick to play which amazed me. A pity that it made my computer heat up alots compare to Mugen 1.0 and Mugen 1.1.

I have not try Ikemen Go yet, but only the original Ikemen which is shown here: https://mugenguild.com/forum/topics/testing-ikemen-online-battle-168830.0.html as there were some characters playable in Mugen 1.0 and 1.1 had issues in Ikemen such as one of the example was when I was trying out divinewolf and victorys characters, I was doing their running animation command, where the characters should be running forward, but the characters short hop forward instead. However, I am glad that it should be working in the latest Ikemen Go where foobs mentioned about it:
Foobs said, January 22, 2024, 04:36:56 am
This is bullshit. I've tested hundreds of characters and stages from the winmugen and mugen 1.0 eras (none of them "chibi") and by and large they all worked as intended. The only memorable cases where they did not work as intended was due to characters using bad code or stages with zoom having the wrong zoffset, but that has been fixed in 0.99. Screenpacks have worked without a hitch for years.

There are still some weird edge cases, but the average mugen user would not be able to tell the difference between a character running on ikemen versus mugen.

Still, I am worried that some of the characters that I had already planned to add in future using Ikemen Go might not work. Akutagawa created Order Sol for the old window Mugen only and he cannot be played in Mugen 1.0 and above since most of the codes that Akutagawa used are mostly from the old window Mugen era that won't work in newer Mugen engine. His characters play much similar to Muteki and some other Guilty Gear XX characters that I knew. The same goes for Zato by Third, a dos Mugen character that can be playable in dos mugen engine only unless there are people trying to fix them to be playable for the newer Mugen engine like what WiCloud did to Akutagawa's Order Sol: https://mugenguild.com/forum/topics/order-sol-akutagawa-now-compatible-1-0-151106.0.html but sadly that he didn't had the features of what the original has.

Other than that, I did read the select.def from time to time and it was heavily upgrade over the original Mugen engine. The abilites of having to assign order=0 to order=30, excluding character(s) in the select screen, one slot having multiple characters and many cool stuffs in it. The only thing I was worrying about were characters and stages compatibility, and also I assume Ikemen Go works in most latest operating system like WIndow 11 as I can't find the spec for it except only in Kamekaze's TMNTXJL site which specify Window 10 is usable to play his TMNTXJL since TMNTXJL is made from Ikemen Go. My computer is currently Window 11, so I don't know if Mugen 1.1, Mugen 1.0 and even dxwho's method of playing the dos mugen engine: https://mugenguild.com/forum/topics/files-needed-run-dosmugen-modern-computers-184809.0.html;all works or not since they are like decades ago's engine compatible for older operating system as there are no specific computer spec for them.

lui said, January 22, 2024, 08:06:36 am
This thread sucks and is poorly thought out bait.
i don't think so, I felt like this thread is okay because it is interesting to see how users thought about Ikemen go that I don't see some of them were discuss in the Ikemen thread here and even in the github site.

BeastwithFriends said, January 23, 2024, 05:07:25 am
Version 99 broke too many things in my build (all of Umehie's SF3 characters), but I'll probably jump over eventually. Those 3-D stages look too pretty!
do you mean Umihei? if it is Umihei's characters, then this would not flavor me since I intend to add his characters in, but his characters had some slight issues in mugen 1.0 and mugen 1.1 already.

when will this personal crises ends? it just won't stop!

BeastwithFriends

Re: What's the appeal of ikemen go (plus ultra or whatever fork) over mugen?
#18  January 23, 2024, 06:13:30 pm
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oraora? said, January 23, 2024, 02:48:06 pm
BeastwithFriends said, January 23, 2024, 05:07:25 am
Version 99 broke too many things in my build (all of Umehie's SF3 characters), but I'll probably jump over eventually. Those 3-D stages look too pretty!
do you mean Umihei? if it is Umihei's characters, then this would not flavor me since I intend to add his characters in, but his characters had some slight issues in mugen 1.0 and mugen 1.1 already.

I did mean Umihei! His characters still work in Version 99 but their integrated power bars don't display properly, similar to how they displayed in Mugen 1.1 to be honest.

They work correctly version 98.2 though. I'm not sure if that version of IKEMEN is still available for download. That's the version I've become the most familiar with... I'll probably be sticking with it for a while. A lot of stages that I edited for 98.2 display differently in 99. But once 3D stages start coming out, I might just start over...

kamui 2.0

Re: What's the appeal of ikemen go (plus ultra or whatever fork) over mugen?
#19  January 26, 2024, 05:34:41 pm
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true 3d stages seems pretty damn awesome
btw, is possible to make true 3d with A.I stages ?
I'm still in 1.1, but I want to go to ikemen soon
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