SFII Vega W.I.P. - Post Update 1/10/13

[Sheng Long]

Okay, I figure I might post this as a WIP topic, because there are some things that I want to address as a character WIP.

- First of all, this one is taking a lot longer to do than the previous 3 bosses from SF2. Mainly because of separating the claw from his own sprites, and the other being that color separating is taking 30 minutes for each sprite. Mainly due to the shades of color and everything. The other 3 bosses didn't really take that long to color separate.
Anyway, this is what we're looking at here.

For the record, the color count here is already above 70.
It seems to be more shades of colors than what I had worked with previously.

- The other thing I want to address is that in World Warrior, he only had climbing the cage programmed in the game. Putting him in any other stage would still make him climb, just no cage present. So I'm thinking should I make it so he just jumps off the side of the screen like in Champion Edition? Seeing that he wasn't playable in World Warrior, there was no need for this. So they only kept him climbing on to things. So maybe when I make this, I have two things to consider. Should I turn off the ability to perform this move completely when he's not on his stage? Or should I let him jump off the side of the screen?

- Here's another thing I've been thinking about. When his claw falls off his hand, it is only 2 frames in WW, and CE. But in SSF2 onward, (even playing as CE Vega in Hyper SFII), the animation seems to be more corrected. So when his claw falls off, should the animation be a couple of frames like in SF2, or the more fixed rotation animation?

- Considering that I am going to make his claw fall off, will it be fine that when he gets thrown, the claw will be temporarily invisible? I don't know any other way to fix it to make him get thrown with the claw still on. Though I've heard that there was a trick through offset repositioning (specifically to Mugen 1.0, maybe?), but I don't know if I've done enough research for that.

- One of the more noticeables in WW Vega is that he does NOT have a stand guard frame. He only has a crouch guard frame, while he tries to back flip everything else. I think keeping something like this would qualify it as a SF2-WW Vega.

Oh yea, I'm surprised that in the game, his claw becomes invisible when he gets shocked. I don't know what happened there. But I think I may fix this when I put his claw on in Mugen.

Spoiler: Screen Shots (click to show)

[Sinnesloschen]

- The other thing I want to address is that in World Warrior, he only had climbing the cage programmed in the game. Putting him in any other stage would still make him climb, just no cage present. So I'm thinking should I make it so he just jumps off the side of the screen like in Champion Edition? Seeing that he wasn't playable in World Warrior, there was no need for this. So they only kept him climbing on to things. So maybe when I make this, I have two things to consider. Should I turn off the ability to perform this move completely when he's not on his stage? Or should I let him jump off the side of the screen?

- Here's another thing I've been thinking about. When his claw falls off his hand, it is only 2 frames in WW, and CE. But in SSF2 onward, (even playing as CE Vega in Hyper SFII), the animation seems to be more corrected. So when his claw falls off, should the animation be a couple of frames like in SF2, or the more fixed rotation animation?

- One of the more noticeables in WW Vega is that he does NOT have a stand guard frame. He only has a crouch guard frame, while he tries to back flip everything else. I think keeping something like this would qualify it as a SF2-WW Vega.

-Maybe there could be an option to have the cage automatically clash down at the beginning of the fight? A simple Config file would probably suffice.

-Go for the two frames animation. It's more accurate.

-Yeah, keep it.

[RobotMonkeyHead]

- The other thing I want to address is that in World Warrior, he only had climbing the cage programmed in the game. Putting him in any other stage would still make him climb, just no cage present. So I'm thinking should I make it so he just jumps off the side of the screen like in Champion Edition? Seeing that he wasn't playable in World Warrior, there was no need for this. So they only kept him climbing on to things. So maybe when I make this, I have two things to consider. Should I turn off the ability to perform this move completely when he's not on his stage? Or should I let him jump off the side of the screen?

I would use the wall bouncing idea.  By making him playable at all you're kind of moving past WW into CE anyway.  Plus it's a really fun move.  CE had an option where while flying through the air you could either push punch for the claw dive, or up and start for a mid air suplex/back breaker kind of move, which was fun.  And yeah, climb only works in his stage.

- Here's another thing I've been thinking about. When his claw falls off his hand, it is only 2 frames in WW, and CE. But in SSF2 onward, (even playing as CE Vega in Hyper SFII), the animation seems to be more corrected. So when his claw falls off, should the animation be a couple of frames like in SF2, or the more fixed rotation animation?

That's a tough one.  If it were me I think I would go with the original WW/CE style, just for posterity.  It doesn't really matter too much, and it would be a nice touch to keep it original I think.

- Considering that I am going to make his claw fall off, will it be fine that when he gets thrown, the claw will be temporarily invisible? I don't know any other way to fix it to make him get thrown with the claw still on. Though I've heard that there was a trick through offset repositioning (specifically to Mugen 1.0, maybe?), but I don't know if I've done enough research for that.

I would say go the research rout.  Maybe make it a helper rather than an explod?

- One of the more noticeables in WW Vega is that he does NOT have a stand guard frame. He only has a crouch guard frame, while he tries to back flip everything else. I think keeping something like this would qualify it as a SF2-WW Vega.

Sounds cool.  You could just have him go into a back flip whenever he would have guarded if they're holding back? 

- Lastly, when cycling through some of his sprites in WW, I found a few frames in which I did not recognize. I didn't think he had any unused frames. So I am wondering if anyone can tell if these are actually used?

When cycling around the sprites, these frames seemed to be together in the set. Though I haven't thoroughly checked his SF2'CE sprite set to see if they still exist in the game. I just noticed these when messing with him in SF2 World Warrior, and just never recognized these frames.

Well, the definitely the last one and maybe the middle one, look like either part of his claw roll or his crouch fierce punch.  The first one may be his jumping off the wall sprite? or maybe also part of the claw roll?  Tough to say.

[Lichtbringer]

- The other thing I want to address is that in World Warrior, he only had climbing the cage programmed in the game. Putting him in any other stage would still make him climb, just no cage present. So I'm thinking should I make it so he just jumps off the side of the screen like in Champion Edition? Seeing that he wasn't playable in World Warrior, there was no need for this. So they only kept him climbing on to things. So maybe when I make this, I have two things to consider. Should I turn off the ability to perform this move completely when he's not on his stage? Or should I let him jump off the side of the screen?

Because it is the World Warrior version, I think it would be the best if he can use this move only on his stage, and it is deactivated otherwise, he is still a strong char even if he is not able to use this move always.

- Considering that I am going to make his claw fall off, will it be fine that when he gets thrown, the claw will be temporarily invisible? I don't know any other way to fix it to make him get thrown with the claw still on. Though I've heard that there was a trick through offset repositioning (specifically to Mugen 1.0, maybe?), but I don't know if I've done enough research for that.

I don't know if it helps, but as far as i know there exist a Street Fighter Alpha or Capcom vs SNK sprite style Vega, with removable claw and mask, maybe the problem was solved on this char but I realy don't know anymore, if someone here knows which Vega I mean, and the Problem is solved on this char, you could use the same solution for the problem.

- One of the more noticeables in WW Vega is that he does NOT have a stand guard frame. He only has a crouch guard frame, while he tries to back flip everything else. I think keeping something like this would qualify it as a SF2-WW Vega.

It's makes the char in some way more "Vega like" if he don't just blocks attacks and risks to get his "beautiful" body hurt, but instead dodges the attack in a "elegant" way.

Oh yea, I'm surprised that in the game, his claw becomes invisible when he gets shocked. I don't know what happened there. But I think I may fix this when I put his claw on in Mugen.

Yea just fix that, making a char accurate don't means to carry over every little bug it has.^^

-Maybe there could be an option to have the cage automatically clash down at the beginning of the fight? A simple Config file would probably suffice.

It's maybe a way to make it work, but on most stages it would just look stupid. =/

[TrinitroRoy]

- Considering that I am going to make his claw fall off, will it be fine that when he gets thrown, the claw will be temporarily invisible? I don't know any other way to fix it to make him get thrown with the claw still on. Though I've heard that there was a trick through offset repositioning (specifically to Mugen 1.0, maybe?), but I don't know if I've done enough research for that.

I don't know if it helps, but as far as i know there exist a Street Fighter Alpha or Capcom vs SNK sprite style Vega, with removable claw and mask, maybe the problem was solved on this char but I realy don't know anymore, if someone here knows which Vega I mean, and the Problem is solved on this char, you could use the same solution for the problem.

If you mean the CvS one, then Rei did it. While I have too check, whenever the claw disappear bug is fixed, I at least can say, that he definitely had problems with his SND file.

[Saikoro]

I think the verdict is clear by sifting through already left feedback:

Have him dive off of the wall instead of including the climb animation. If you wanted to take a step further, you could provide options for both variants through an option file. Cage dropdown included.

Make the claw appear to fall off correctly. Use the frames that feel just right.

Make him block. I foresee that backflip animation getting old, especially when blocking a multi-hit attack string. But that's just me. Again, maybe an option here as well.

And didn't Rei's Vega always have that claw bug, most notably while thrown?? There was also another SFA3 styled Vega that had the same issue. Can't remember the author...

Also, are you going to remain true to Vega's roots and omit his kicks that were eventually added in to his repertoire??

Lastly, I'm really looking forward to this. Mugen needs a definitive Vega. Rin&Bat's variant is ancient.

[Sheng Long]

I just checked Rei's CvS one. The claw/mask definitely disappear when he gets put into a thrown/custom animation state.

I guess there's no real way around it other than to place the claw on top of the sprites themselves, ala SvC Chaos, where the claw could never be removed. But to be honest, I think we actually do need a decent SFII Vega somewhere.

As far as the sprites I shown above, I'm 95% sure they are unused. They may look like crouch attacks, or a jump attack or something, but it's not really the actual ones he uses.

[Karasai]

Make his Flying Barcelona Attack incredibly cheap like how it is in Street FighterXMega Man 

[Sinnesloschen]

I've an idea that may or may not work. Perhaps you could release a special version of his stage with him that will allow the cage climbing?

[TrinitroRoy]

I just checked Rei's CvS one. The claw/mask definitely disappear when he gets put into a thrown/custom animation state.

I guess there's no real way around it other than to place the claw on top of the sprites themselves, ala SvC Chaos, where the claw could never be removed. But to be honest, I think we actually do need a decent SFII Vega somewhere.

As far as the sprites I shown above, I'm 95% sure they are unused. They may look like crouch attacks, or a jump attack or something, but it's not really the actual ones he uses.

Sorry to go off-topic, but how did you made Rei's CvS Vega work? Did you removed his SND file like I did?

[GalFord]

That "unused" animation is actually his airthrow.  It acts in almost the same manner as Chun-Li's in that upon connection, he drops to the floor (with slight inertia) whilst throwing his opponent across the screen.  It was a pain in the ass to connect with in CE.

[RobotMonkeyHead]

I thought his air throw was the suplex.

[Aldo]

^ That´s a command grab IIRC

[Sinnesloschen]

I'm pretty sure Vega never had a command throw.

[Aldo]

He didn´t have Izuna Drop in SF2 CE? That´s what I´m talking about

[Sinnesloschen]

I never really thought of that as a command throw. I think he did, since I'm pretty sure he used it in WW. Then again, I'm the one who thought Balrog had Buffalo Head in WW.

[Sheng Long]

Seems like he did more claw diving than izuna drop in World Warrior, but I could be wrong. Also, I can't recall Vega ever having an air throw at all, though my memory is a bit rusty. I was cycling through his sprites some in CE and Hyper Fighting, I never saw those same sprites anywhere. Though of course everyone's sprites seemed to have gotten moved around since World Warrior anyway. But I suppose I can check.

EDIT: Yup, Messing with him in CE. They did appear to be his air throw frames. Thanks for the info.
Unfortunately it seems really hard to pull off for me at the moment. I was able to pull it off once as of this message Maybe the timing is not right.

[RobotMonkeyHead]

Check this out.

[Saikoro]

Those are, uh, some overly COMPLICATED hitboxes, no?? Amazing find though. I love overly technical things.

[Sheng Long]

Yea.... I never went for the hitboxes in the actual games with debuggers or whatever they are using. 1 - I can never understand which is which due to the many other hitboxes there, and 2 - I don't have what they use to display the hitboxes.

Anyway, I'm glad this topic was brought back up. I have finally finished color separating all the sprites from the original set, and finished making the sprite file.
After weeks and weeks worth of work, I have already begun programming him into mugen. The custom win quote system works as usual from my standard format. He can't attack yet, but he is controllable at this point.
I still have to add his claw back on his arm. The sprites are aligned correctly, I just need to code and animate them.

Spoiler: Screen Shots (click to show)