Character Polishing Discussion for eventual Tutorial Building

[RobotMonkeyHead]

Again, Training is probably best to test drive on. I'll get to Frame Advantage writing and probably PM you about it.

Sounds good.  I've started on the Damage Exchange section, so I'll post a draft of that as soon as it's finished.

[RobotMonkeyHead]

Ok, here's that.  It still reads clunky, and needs to be refined and added to, but it's a start:

Spoiler: Damage Exchange Draft (click to show)

Ah damage, exchange.  There are a lot of things to consider when updating a characters damage values, and we'll cover as many of them as we can without making it too confusing.  The first thing we're going to do is to establish exactly what they are and where they are.  To do that, let's start by breaking out the Training.  Start up your Mugen and pick Vs mode.  Set your player up as player 1 and Training as player 2.  Once the fight has started, press the Training's medium punch (Y Button) to call up the damage counter (insert pic).  What we'll be paying attention to for this part is the top two numbers, Damage and Total Damage.  Hit the Training a couple times with your character just to see what they are.  For most single attacks, these should be the same, and if they aren't, don't worry about it, we'll cover that in a minute.  For now, just grab the Total Damage value.  Now for the fun part:   
 

__________/ BASICS

        STAND       CROUCH       AIR
QP: [ 200 : d ], [ 400 : d ], [ 600 : d ]
MP: [ 210 : d ], [ 410 : d ], [ 610 : d ]
SP: [ 220 : d ], [ 420 : d ], [ 620 : d ]
QK: [ 230 : d ], [ 430 : d ], [ 630 : d ]
MK: [ 240 : d ], [ 440 : d ], [ 640 : d ]
SK: [ 250 : d ], [ 450 : d ], [ 650 : d ]

Throw 1:     [ s : d ]
Throw 2:     [ s : d ]

__________/ SPECIALS

Projectile 1: [ s : d ]
Projectile 2: [ s : d ]
Projectile 3: [ s : d ]

Charge Move 1: [ s : d ]
Charge Move 2: [ s : d ]

Helper Assist: [ s : d ]


__________/ SUPERS AND HYPERS

                 LVL 1    LVL 2     LVL 3
Projectile: [ s : d ]  [ s : d ]  [ s : d ]
Charge:     [ s : d ]  [ s : d ]  [ s : d ]
'Combo':    [ s : d ]  [ s : d ]  [ s : d ]
Hyper:      [ s : d ] 


Here's how to fill it out.  Each attack has a [ s : d ] box.  The 's' is for the initial state number of the attack, and 'd' is the damage it does.  We know how to check the damage already (Training), but how do we check the initial state no?  In game, press Ctrl + D to bring up the debug menu for your character.  In the lower left you will see a line that reads "STATE NO:" followed by a number.  When you throw a punch, or move or do anything at all, you should see that number change. That number is what we're after.  Sometimes when you attack, the state will go through a couple different numbers, but what we want here is the first one it goes to when you pull off the attack.  That's what's going in the 's' slots on our table.  [ State No : Damage ].  If the attack does go through multiple numbers in the State No, just put a little * next to the number like so [ 923*, d ].
   Now, since the basic attacks most often use their default states, I've filled those ones out for you already.  Be sure to double check them and make sure your character uses those states for their basic attacks though, and if they don't change the numbers I have written in there!   
   Now, onto the doing it part.  You're going to want to get this data for every one of the characters attacks, and there may be attacks that aren't on the table.  You'll need to make your own notes / slots for these attacks in the same format.  The table is just a basic guide based on common attack types.  By the time you're done with it though, it should be tailored to your character, and have each and every one of their attacks noted for state number and total damage.  You're probably going to want to break out their moves list, if they came with one.  If they didn't, check the Creating a Moves list section in this tutorial.

  Once you're done with that, and you have the table filled out, save the original someplace safe and copy and paste another version of it to edit.  Take that version of it and compare and contrast it against the Basic Character Type templates in this section.  This should give you a very basic idea of what relatively fair attack values look like.  Now it this point, if you don't already know, it's probably a good idea to stop and think about how you want your character to play.  It's easy enough to make a well rounded characters with a few projectiles and little bit of everything, but in the end, a game full of rounded characters probably isn't going to be as fun as one with some variety.  So really think about what you want your characters strengths and weaknesses to be.  I'll give you a few things to consider;

Fighting Range: Is my character usually right on the front line throwing punches, kicks and melee attacks (like say Wolverine), or does my character tend to hang back a bit more and use ranged attacks (more like Cyclops). 

Technicality: In close combat is my character the type to dodge, counter and parry a lot, setting up for bigger hits (think Samurai Shodown), or is my character more of a button smasher (think Hulk) who wins by doing more damage on the average.

Special Reliance:  Does my character spend a lot of their focus on trying to get the power bar up to pull off special attacks that do a lot of damage, or does my character tend to do more damage in other ways.     

Comboability: Does my character tend to string a lot of basic attacks together into combo's or do they rely more on single hits to do damage?

This part can be really fun and imaginative, and there is no real right way to do it.  Just try to keep it fair is all.  If your character turns out to be an ass kicker in every department, you'll see why when you have to fight them!  There really is a whole lot more to consider, but this should get you in the right frame of mind for recreating your characters strengths and weaknesses in combat.  You could start by listing 1 or 2 strengths and weaknesses you want your character to have, and adding it to their list of damages for reference sake.  Note that the 2 values in these templates make up a suggested range for the damage value, they don't include the state numbers.



__/ AERIAL CHARACTER TYPE
Examples: Spiderman, Vega(claw), etc...

__________/ BASICS

        STAND       CROUCH       AIR
QP: [ 20 - 40 ], [ 20 - 40 ], [ 30 - 50 ]
MP: [ 40 - 60 ], [ 40 - 60 ], [ 50 - 70 ]
SP: [ 60 - 90 ], [ 60 - 90 ], [ 80 - 100]
QK: [ 20 - 40 ], [ 20 - 40 ], [ 30 - 50 ]
MK: [ 40 - 60 ], [ 40 - 60 ], [ 50 - 70 ]
SK: [ 60 - 90 ], [ 60 - 90 ], [ 80 - 100]

Throw 1:     [ s : d ]
Throw 2:     [ s : d ]

__________/ SPECIALS

Projectile 1: [ s : d ]
Projectile 2: [ s : d ]
Projectile 3: [ s : d ]

Charge Move 1: [ s : d ]
Charge Move 2: [ s : d ]

Helper Assist: [ s : d ]


__________/ SUPERS AND HYPERS

                 LVL 1    LVL 2     LVL 3
Projectile: [ s : d ]  [ s : d ]  [ s : d ]
Charge:     [ s : d ]  [ s : d ]  [ s : d ]
'Combo':    [ s : d ]  [ s : d ]  [ s : d ]
Hyper:      [ s : d ] 


__________/ TWEAKING CONSIDERATIONS
1) If your character has more projectiles than average, consider leaning their Basics damage toward
   the lighter side.  Adjusting the Throws damage depends on the strategy type of your character.
   If your character has few to no projectiles heavy, you might want to make up by adding slightly
   more damage to the Basics (aerials especially).

2) If your specials and supers are really powerful, try making up for it somewhere else by lowering
   the damage of Basics or Projectiles.

Missing: Lots.  Other character type templates. How to search cns for state and change damage value.  How to account for multiple hit attacks.  Finalizing Life, Attack & Defense.

[Sinnesloschen]

You'll want to refer to Training's buttons as X, Y, etc. Also, Training's name isn't Training Dummy.

[RobotMonkeyHead]

Oops, ma B.  Fixin. Fixed. Thanks.

C.A.N's first draft of the Frame Advantage section:

Spoiler: Frame Advantage (click to show)

What is frame advantage?
It's the your recovery relative to your opponent's recovery from hitstun. Take this example: your jab takes four frames to recover, but P2 recovers in 5 frames. Since you recovered one frame faster, you are at +1 frame advantage.
What is frame advantage good for?
It allows opportunities for links and other combo tools to extend your combos. For example: if your jab leaves you at +5 frames and your medium starts up in 4 frames, a good bit of timing allows you to connect with the medium after the jab connects. Links aren't as useful if your character uses basic chaining, but it can be used to combo aftercertain special moves to extend your combos further or start them a different way.
Why bother with frame advantage?
Because it makes sure that your moves aren't unsafe even on hit. If a move leaves you at negative frames, your opponent can act before you recover. Not to mention links are going to be critical to your character if they don't use basic chains. A look at frame data can also make sure your attacks aren't too unsafe on block or, inversely, too safe on block. Bad frame data can lead to nasty infinites on hit or block.
How do I check frame data in Mugen?
You could go for frame counting, but there's a far easier solution. There's a character called Training that can allow you to see frame data of attacks that hit it. This combined with data from the AIR file can help you find out what links are and aren't possible and if you want them to be possible.

[Sinnesloschen]

C.A.N's first draft of the Frame Advantage section:

Fixed. I love how some people call me my display name and others go by my user name. I usually want my username to be the one I'm credited as.

[Saikoro]

Ah. Good old frame advantages. Vanilla Tekken Tag first taught me about this. And buffering.

Speaking if which, does Mugen even allow for buffering??

I'm really liking where this is going....

[Sinnesloschen]

I'm pretty sure there's something in the CMD that allows buffering. I know Don Drago's chars used it.

[RobotMonkeyHead]

I just realized how much research I'm going to have to do to make this damage exchange section the way I want to.  Does anyone know where I can get some good data for damage values in source games?  (MvC, MSH, SFA etc...)   I'm going to make a damage table kinda like this: (in final form it will be a picture of a table in excel or something) Might be a form of self torture, but I may add frame advantage in these if I can find the data.   If I can't get source game, I'm making a list of existing mugen characters to test anyway.  Well balanced ones.  Any suggestions?

__/ Power Houses
                    S.QP  |  S.MP |  S.ST |  S.QK  |  S.MK |  S.SK  |  SPECIAL 1 |   SPECIAL 2 | HYPER 1 |   
Hulk MvC    :          |          |         |           |           |          |                  |                   |              |
Zangief SF2:           |          |         |           |           |          |                  |                   |              |
Zangief SF3:           |          |         |           |           |          |                  |                   |              |
Zangief SFA3:         |          |         |           |           |          |                  |                   |              |
Juggetnaut :           |          |         |           |           |          |                  |                   |              |
AVERAGE:              |          |         |           |           |          |                  |                   |              |


      Posted: January 07, 2013, 08:46:10 PM
References:
http://wiki.shoryuken.com/Street_Fighter_2:_Hyper_Fighting/Vega
http://wiki.shoryuken.com/Sagat_%28HF%29
http://wiki.shoryuken.com/Balrog_%28HF%29
http://www.gamefaqs.com/dreamcast/914427-marvel-vs-capcom-2/faqs/11265
http://www.eventhubs.com/guides/2009/nov/01/character-strength-comparison-street-fighter-4/
http://www.gamefaqs.com/dreamcast/914427-marvel-vs-capcom-2/faqs/14687
http://faqs.ign.com/articles/429/429845p1.html
http://shoryuken.com/forum/index.php?threads/mvc2-damage-scaling.43636/
http://wiki.shoryuken.com/Haohmaru_%28CvS2%29
http://www.gamefaqs.com/ngpc/198682-snk-vs-capcom-match-of-the-millennium/faqs/8450
http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps2/920078-street-fighter-iii-3rd-strike/faqs/29359
http://www.gamefaqs.com/snes/588700-street-fighter-ii/faqs/25190

[Sinnesloschen]

I'm pretty sure Koopakoot's Zangief's damage values are accurate to SFA style damage.

[RobotMonkeyHead]

Ok, got a template table built in spreadsheet form for easy calculating later on:  (click image to enlarge)

Brawler table will act as a template for the other character type tables.
All damage values will be scaled to Mugen's 1000 point standard life bar from their source games.

Reference material:
Shoryuken.com
GameFAQs.com

This table will be filling up slowly, please feel free to suggest characters that you feel should be represented here.  My taste tends to be a bit lopsided toward vs series stuff, and arcade classic fighters, so any suggestions are helpful, and will help provide a wider array of tastes represented overall.
With the table how it is now, each fighter type can have up to 6 'representatives'.  In the tutorial the table will be downloadable in excel format too, so people can customize it if they like. Here's what I've got so far:

Brawlers: Wolverine MvC2
Grapplers: Zangief SFA3
Powerhouses: Hulk MvC 3, Hulk MvC 2, Juggernaut MvC 3
Aerial: Spiderman MvC 3, Vega (Claw) SFA 3
Technical: Haohmaru SS5, Genjuro SS5
Ranged: Ryu Sf2 HF, Ryu MvC 2, Cyclops MvC 2
Combo Happy: ...may just delete this category all together...
Miscellaneous: Shuma Gorath MvC 2

      Posted: January 09, 2013, 11:24:29 AM
So I released an empty version of the table here for people to check out, and use to balance their own rosters if they want.  I have yet to add an attack multiplier column to it.  Did consider adding frame advantage data to it, but that more than triples the work load, and it can be explained to useful enough effect without the data.

[RobotMonkeyHead]

It lives...
   So I'm just about finished cooking up the balancing chart, calling it Grasshopper.  All that stuff I said about 'fighter types' is basically out the window at this point (unless it ends up being included as an alternate layout to the chart), it seems to work much better broken up by game.  I think someone suggested that...

Here's a link to the Grasshopper WIP topic if you want to check it out.  It's in the 'data gathering' phase at this point, where I'm just trying to load it with characters frame data.  If anyone would like an early copy to help with the inputting or just to have, let me know.  Usually only takes about 10 min or so to add a character's data.