YesNoOk
avatar

A character select screen idea... (Read 14191 times)

Started by Krizalid_99, April 03, 2007, 01:45:42 am
Share this topic:
A character select screen idea...
#1  April 03, 2007, 01:45:42 am
  • avatar
  • **
Seeing as there are two separate MUGEN engines being developed I may as well post my idea here as well...

I briefly checked the suggestion thread ideas and it seems nobody has described the exact idea/suggestion I'm about to describe...I think.

Well anyway I've been thinking, seeing as MUGEN obviously has literally an infinite capacity for characters you are never able to display ALL say, 400 or 500 characters on the select screen at once in nice-looking, clear icons because there is simply is not enough space on the standard screen, especially when you also need P1's and P2's character portraits on the screen as well. So far to combat this in the current MUGEN is the 'category select' method which hides the grids and icons and makes the cell space into '1' place which means the cursor won't move anywhere. Good, but disadvantages are lack of character icons which means you need to scroll through blindly to find your character and if you have mixed slot categories it can be a pain getting down or up to the next category (example: you have SFA3 and SF2 categories, SFA3 has 34 characters and SF2 has 16 characters, if you're on SFA3 and have character number 28 highlighted you cannot move down to SF2 unless you go back to character 16 on SFA3).

I've seen a few character select ideas suggested namely 'pages' and 'scrolling', but in most/all of them there is a problem...and that problem is that if 2 players are both simultaneously selecting their characters P1 could go to another 'page' or 'scroll' that P2 doesn't want...and same vice-versa...

So I've designed a character select 'engine' that may solve some of the problems mentioned above - especially the icons, as well as being able to retain a 'cool' design. Below is my idea/suggestion for choosing characters in a 3-on-3 game...there is still a major flaw in it but anyway:

1) When the player(s) enter the character select screen, he/she/they will choose the game/category first as shown:



2) Once a player (or both) has chosen a game/category, the character grid of THAT game/category appears in their own section, allowing you to pick from the characters of that game. The character portraits and names appear at the top for P1 and bottom for P2. The 'active' slot is bordered in yellow. In this case P1 selects 'Street Fighter II' and P2 selects 'Darkstalkers' as shown shown below:



3) And if a player decides he/she wants to select someone else from another game, they can maybe use the START button to exit the current character grid and go back to the game/category select to choose another game.

Advantages to this method:

- You can use large, visually-clear icons (no more 5x5 pixel jobs)
- If the grids are made to be size adjustable then even better
- P1 and P2 can be independent when selecting characters, no arguing about which page or scroll to go on in order to select a certain character
- Have game title 'logos'

Disadvantages to this method:

- Little room for character portraits which means portraits will have to be somewhat small as shown in the 2nd picture
- Due to the amounts of screen this method takes up, the Stage Select may need to be moved to another, extra screen (like the Versus modes of SF2 on the SNES/PS1/Saturn)

Like I said earlier there is a major flaw in it...and the flaw is that when you select the game/category, I've designed it in a way that you can scroll up or down to more games/categories - but when 2 players are selecting, they are 'sharing' the categories, which means P1 may want to scroll to another game while P2 wants to remain in a certain area. But this is easily fixed though, all that needs to be done is make a split down the middle so that both players have their OWN game/category select section.
 
What do you think?
Re: A character select screen idea...
#2  April 03, 2007, 11:15:07 am
  • avatar
  • ***
    • www.sakirsoft.com
Its a nice idee and whis would also help to decrease loading time in ShugenDo
becuase it would only load the current selected category.

Also i looked at the Disadvantages.Here my statements on this.
Quote
- Due to the amounts of screen this method takes up, the Stage Select may need to be moved to another, extra screen (like the Versus modes of SF2 on the SNES/PS1/Saturn)

No Problem because ShugenDo will have its own Stage Slection screen( i am working on it  now )

Quote
3) And if a player decides he/she wants to select someone else from another game, they can maybe use the START button to exit the current character grid and go back to the game/category select to choose another game.

The B button handle this in ShugenDo


The idee is good and ShugenDo support 640x480 in menu so you have some extra space.


Here you can find ShugenDo
www.sakirsoft.com
Re: A character select screen idea...
#3  April 07, 2007, 06:36:54 am
  • avatar
  • **
Well you know the "major flaw" I mentioned in my original post? I've fixed this by making the game/category select feature 'separate' for each player, as shown below:



This will mean that each player can be totally independent when selecting their games/characters, for example if Player 1 wants to pick a game that is not on the current page/scroll and Player 2 wants to pick a game that is not on the page/scroll of Player 1's game, Player 1 will not have to wait for Player 2 to finish picking his/her game and character before Player 1 can pick his/her desired game and character. The same vice-versa.

The disadvantage with this is that the space for the game titles/logos will be narrow, so it'll probably be unlikely that you'll be able to fit the whole title/logo of a game into the boxes...

Anyway thanks for your opinion SakirSoft, I hope it inspires you in your development of the character select system... ;)

Last Edit: April 07, 2007, 07:11:37 am by Krizalid_99v2
Re: A character select screen idea...
#4  April 16, 2007, 03:37:09 pm
  • ****
  • Solid V
    • www.mugen-infantry.net/
I don't think I explained my proposal clearly but this is a quick edit I put together of what I was suggesting:



That is just a skeleton layout- wasn't trying to make it look nice :sugoi:.

But yeah the coding for the grid would be something like this... (the titles could either be names using .fnt files or sprites in the system.sff)

  <-- I kinda got lazy but the categories are suppose to have different characters in each slot to demonstrate what I mean. Technically the grid could go on and on endlessly both vertically and horizontally... It could probably play on the name having an infinite capacity select in InfinityCat

The select screen would have a new parameter to show only a certain amount of the grid 4x2 or 5x2 or 2x10 on each side independently. This way you could have a large select without having the screen cluttered. 

Also for player 2 it would reverse the small portraits so it looks like they're facing each other.

There would have to be another parameter for sff sprite logos or a .fnt logo for each category like KOF, Guilty Gear, Street Fighter etc.

This would make it so that you have an infinite select because you could just keep adding more categories in the select and make the columns longer if you ran out of space in the category.

I think if there was a way to add delta values to the small portraits you could get the select screen to follow the icon selector. If the delta value was 0,0 I think it would do this. Also the window = 0,151,119,208 to hide the rest of the grid I guess. Maybe there's some other way to code it but this is all I can think of- hoping its possible though.

Also is a stage preview possible?



One more thing....

Would it be possible to run say an online server with an interactive stage hosted? So say multiple people could join in on that one stage? Or maybe code a chat room into the engine or make special stages to be used as chat rooms where people can walk around with a mugen character and maybe talk or fight with other people by using special commands on the keyboard.

I'm sure that would cause a lag even if there was a dedicated stage on a server for that so I would guess there could be a limit to how many people could be in a stage at once?

But yeah that would be cool if mugen became a little more MMORPG'ish if thats at all possible or even just a chat room where people could walk around and talk using mugen characters...

Sorry for the long post again :sugoi:




Suggested that on the ShugenDo boards on the first beta release.  Although I posted this for Infinicat I posted the same thing on the ShugenDo boards. Though it seems that Sofiyacat hasn't been active here since February, so its more likely that ShugenDo would implement this first.

Though I gotta learn the new xml format :S. Also I think I'd have to get a font editor or something to edit truetype fonts, because there doesn't seem like there is a way to change the font outline- like in your example you have a 1px black outline around the text...

I was just thinking if somebody moves more than 4 spaces to the right or to the left it would jump to another category on the select grid.  There could be some kind of parameter that sets how wide each category is- either 4 or 5 slots wide.  I don't get how it would work your way because I'd have to move up or down to select a character but how would I go back to select another category, unless they specified escape to go back a step...

Mugen-Infantry - 133G10N
Last Edit: April 16, 2007, 04:18:45 pm by DJ-VAN
Re: A character select screen idea...
#5  April 16, 2007, 07:51:38 pm
  • *
  • Mettsau!
That totally kicks a$$.
Read the pm i sent you.
- TMasta
Re: A character select screen idea...
#6  April 16, 2007, 09:54:08 pm
  • avatar
  • ***
    • www.sakirsoft.com
Yeahh i noticed your idees.

BTW once you understand that xml file you will love it.
You should use Notepad++ to edit them http://notepad-plus.sourceforge.net

TO DJ-VAN:
The problem of your idee is that i will use alot of memory,
because you load all the port portraits at once.

The idee of Krizalid_99v2 would be make it able to load the
portraits of each game type on the fly.

Saddly i am very bad at image creation so i can't show your the idee of thinking of it.
I want to use the template of Krizalid_99v2
Here you can find ShugenDo
www.sakirsoft.com
Re: A character select screen idea...
#7  April 18, 2007, 07:15:45 am
  • avatar
  • **



Suggested that on the ShugenDo boards on the first beta release.  Although I posted this for Infinicat I posted the same thing on the ShugenDo boards. Though it seems that Sofiyacat hasn't been active here since February, so its more likely that ShugenDo would implement this first.

I was just thinking if somebody moves more than 4 spaces to the right or to the left it would jump to another category on the select grid.  There could be some kind of parameter that sets how wide each category is- either 4 or 5 slots wide.  I don't get how it would work your way because I'd have to move up or down to select a character but how would I go back to select another category, unless they specified escape to go back a step...

DJ-VAN, that's quite a good idea, in fact I kind of had the same idea in mind among several others before I decided on the one I have described for this thread.

I have briefly looked into your suggestion further, and I've compiled the following list of advantages and disadvantages, making some comparisons to my idea, with full respect to yours:

Advantages:

- Main advantage is that it allows use of big/full-sized portraits because there is enough space. One of the advantages my idea isn't likely to have. :P

- There will be enough space to include the Stage Select function on the same screen, including a small preview image. Again an advantage over my idea...but personally I prefer the stage select to be on another extra 'summary' screen so that it can more detailed and with a larger preview image.

- Like my idea, both players can be completely independent when selecting their characters. That's a very important one in my opinion.

- There is enough width and height space to include game title logos/images, unlike mine...

Disadvantages:

- If a category has more characters than can be shown in the 4x2 or 5x2 or 2x10 etc. grid then the player will have to move up and down to the next 'page/grid' if the player's desired character is not shown on the originally visible grid (or page)...basically it's vice-versa to my idea - I've sacrificed portrait space for more grid icons to be shown, while you've sacrificed grid/icon space for big portraits and a Stage Select preview image. I want pages to be included as well for my idea, but because my one can display more grids/icons, it means you can limit the number of pages and see more characters at once on a page, which will result in less searching for the player as he/she would not have to go through as many pages.

- You don't get to see the category/game list. This means the player has to 'blind select' or 'guess search' by moving a lot of spaces to the right or left (especially if it's a 2x10 grid) to find the desired category/game. A solution could be to have the player memorise the category pattern or look at the select.def, otherwise it'll be all guess work...

Well that's my 2 cents. Obviously both our suggestions have advantages over each other, and it's a matter of personal preference. Naturally of course we'll stick to our own suggestions.

 :)
Last Edit: April 18, 2007, 07:18:19 am by Krizalid_99v2
Re: A character select screen idea...
#8  April 18, 2007, 04:41:30 pm
  • ****
  • Solid V
    • www.mugen-infantry.net/
I like your idea Krizalid_99v2

I was thinking we can combine both of them with that spot thats open in the middle of my version of the select between the two large portraits but then I wouldn't have space for something like what I have below- so I still kinda like my select :ninja:

But in your select why are there 3 portraits I thought you could have 4 characters?

What I was hoping is that SakirSoft could make it like MVC. Say if I select a character it would skew their portrait- something like this:



So it would look like this originally....


but onces you pic a character you can then change the palette and the character would appear in front of the skewed portrait. I guess you could then have a line of portraits going down into the background like mvc with the character sprites in front to make it look like a line of character sprites facing each other... lined up like they're about to fight. Maybe a code to make each character use their taut as they're waiting for all the other selections to be made...<-- I don't think that's possible though :S

something like this I guess for reference:



but with portraits and character sprites...

Quote
- You don't get to see the category/game list. This means the player has to 'blind select' or 'guess search' by moving a lot of spaces to the right or left (especially if it's a 2x10 grid) to find the desired category/game. A solution could be to have the player memorise the category pattern or look at the select.def, otherwise it'll be all guess work...

I do that already with my select in EVE I guess. If the category section is 4 slots wide it would only take 4x20 to cycle through the category list by moving the icon selector left to right.  Also if there was an auto command like if you held down the left or right button a certain number of seconds that it would automatically move in that direction changing categories would be easy.

Or if SakirSoft makes it in steps with an additional button. Like a back button or something- so you'd need 6 buttons for punches, 1 for taunt, and 1 for back as well as the d pad.  But cycling through the categories on my select would be easy since the most sections you could possibly have is 20 maybe more but not by much, and the categories would only be 4 slots wide, although an infinite number of slots tall or deep. I guess if you move down it would display 2 more row's or just 1 row moving the other row out of view.

Meh hope that clears things up :sugoi:

Mugen-Infantry - 133G10N
Re: A character select screen idea...
#9  April 22, 2007, 07:45:16 pm
  • avatar
  • *
  • Newspaper swordsman



I like this one the most, but I don't understand why the 'game select' banners don't simply go away once you've picked. Wouldn't it be more space efficient to just have those group logos disappear once you've selected, aside from the game you are browsing, which already has it's logo at the top? I mean, you could always reopen the 'game select' menu with a tap to the cancel button, so you don't need it staring you in the face when you could have pretty animated sprites staring at you instead. ^_^
Re: A character select screen idea...
#10  April 26, 2007, 07:18:41 am
  • avatar
  • **
But in your select why are there 3 portraits I thought you could have 4 characters?

Yeah my images were just a quick visual design concept to depict my idea/suggestion. It can easily be made for 4 characters/portraits - all you have to do is split the top and bottom sections into 4 parts instead of the 3 my images currently show. So it'll be 2 parts for 2 characters mode and obviously one (the whole top and bottom sections) for Singles mode. I'm assuming and hoping that once an advanced version of MUGEN is completed (ShuGenDo, InfCat, etc.) you would be able to choose between a Singles Mode, Tag Mode, or KOF-Team Mode - with the ability to choose how many characters each player can have (i.e. 1 to 4) in the Tag and KOF-team modes.

Quote
What I was hoping is that SakirSoft could make it like MVC. Say if I select a character it would skew their portrait- something like this:

You mean MvC2? Hmm, yes that can be a good idea to effectively use up less space on the screen as well being able to display the portraits in full. I'm assuming and hoping that advanced versions of MUGEN will feature better image 'filter resizing' features than the horrible 'pixel resize' in the current WinMUGEN which usually leads to portraits and icons being distorted...

Quote


but onces you pic a character you can then change the palette and the character would appear in front of the skewed portrait. I guess you could then have a line of portraits going down into the background like mvc with the character sprites in front to make it look like a line of character sprites facing each other... lined up like they're about to fight.p


Interesting...you've actually brought up 2 features/aspects I didn't think about or forgot:

1) The actual in-game character sprite being shown on the select screen.
2) The ability to change/select the palette of the character, allowing you to 'preview' the colours of the characters.

Personally, I'm not too bothered about in-game character sprites appearing on the select screen, in fact I do see it taking up valuable space on the select screen. One thing for sure though is that you've added another disadvantage to my idea as I don't think there is enough space on my select screen to fit in-game character sprites!  ;P

However what I am interested in though is the ability to preview and change/select the palettes/colours of a character on the select screen. The Melty Blood Re-Act and Eternal Fighter Zero games allow you to do precisely that, for their character's portraits. I really liked that feature, and hopefully future versions of MUGEN (i.e. ShuGenDo, InfCat, etc.) will allow you to do that for the character portraits - but of course because there's so many existing MUGEN characters already created now, it's obviously possible  to display an in-game sprite to change the palettes on, because the in-game sprites will obviously 100% have different palettes, which the portraits do not (the creator didn't incorporate it). So technically with existing MUGEN characters there are no alternate portrait palettes...unless you or the creator adjusts the files. Maybe new rules can be introduced for creating characters on future versions of MUGEN, but it'll be difficult for portrait images which are not completely clear cut 'separate pixel' images (think EFZ or SFA2/SFA3 portraits compared to a JPEG style portrait image of say, Van Damme from SF:The Movie or a magazine image). Hope you understood all that. Meh, we'll just have to see how it goes...

Quote
something like this I guess for reference:

http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/6572/cpv01dcd1c32dy3.jpg

but with portraits and character sprites...

Yes, the MvC2 character select screen style is indeed very nice (I actually thought it looked better WITHOUT the chunky gold grids), but I'm one who wants a specific Category select...

Quote
I do that already with my select in EVE I guess.

Same here with my own screenpack, but I guess we both want a change from blindly tapping Left or Right on the D-Pad as fast as we can to get to the character we want to select huh? ;)

Quote
If the category section is 4 slots wide it would only take 4x20 to cycle through the category list by moving the icon selector left to right.

Still 'blind' selecting though for the categories, I guess you and many others would be happy with that, but the 'blind select' aspect still bothers me... 

Quote
Also if there was an auto command like if you held down the left or right button a certain number of seconds that it would automatically move in that direction changing categories would be easy.

That could work... but in that idea there is the disadvantage (in my view) of having to wait for something to change - which I don't favour. I like things to be responsive immediately and kept simple and 'basic' to a certain level. And the 'blind select' aspect is there again in that idea... :P

Quote
Or if SakirSoft makes it in steps with an additional button. Like a back button or something- so you'd need 6 buttons for punches, 1 for taunt, and 1 for back as well as the d pad.  But cycling through the categories on my select would be easy since the most sections you could possibly have is 20 maybe more but not by much, and the categories would only be 4 slots wide, although an infinite number of slots tall or deep. I guess if you move down it would display 2 more row's or just 1 row moving the other row out of view.

The extra 'back' button could work... but I'm a person who likes it kept simple and I would prefer the whole thing able to be navigated using the existing D-Pad, 6 Buttons, and the START button without having to incorporate any extra button(s) just for a 'smallish' function. Think of it like this: An arcade operator owning a Capcom CPS2 arcade cabinet which has the Joystick, 6 Buttons, and the Start button for each player...now when Capcom release new games on it they have to make sure the new game's functions are able to be worked using the existing setup on the cabinet...otherwise if a new button is needed it can cause all sorts of complex problems. I know it isn't the same thing on MUGEN, but like I said I would prefer it to be kept simple...

...and guess what - the 'blind select' aspect is still there in that idea! ;D   

Quote
Meh hope that clears things up :sugoi:

Indeed it did. We both have our own personal visions...I guess in an ideal world you can maybe combine features (like you said) or have a choice of using which method to use...just have to see how it goes. :)

Re: A character select screen idea...
#11  May 06, 2007, 12:44:37 am
  • avatar
  • *
Well I would re suggest my cube idea but The disadvantage would be the player 1/2 bug =P, What could possibly help however is an increased native resolution, 800x600 instead of 640x480 maybe.
Re: A character select screen idea...
#12  October 01, 2007, 01:52:54 am
  • avatar
  • Do I freighten you?
I like your idea Krizalid_99v2

I was thinking we can combine both of them with that spot thats open in the middle of my version of the select between the two large portraits but then I wouldn't have space for something like what I have below- so I still kinda like my select :ninja:

But in your select why are there 3 portraits I thought you could have 4 characters?

What I was hoping is that SakirSoft could make it like MVC. Say if I select a character it would skew their portrait- something like this:



So it would look like this originally....


but onces you pic a character you can then change the palette and the character would appear in front of the skewed portrait. I guess you could then have a line of portraits going down into the background like mvc with the character sprites in front to make it look like a line of character sprites facing each other... lined up like they're about to fight. Maybe a code to make each character use their taut as they're waiting for all the other selections to be made...<-- I don't think that's possible though :S

something like this I guess for reference:



but with portraits and character sprites...

Quote
- You don't get to see the category/game list. This means the player has to 'blind select' or 'guess search' by moving a lot of spaces to the right or left (especially if it's a 2x10 grid) to find the desired category/game. A solution could be to have the player memorise the category pattern or look at the select.def, otherwise it'll be all guess work...

I do that already with my select in EVE I guess. If the category section is 4 slots wide it would only take 4x20 to cycle through the category list by moving the icon selector left to right.  Also if there was an auto command like if you held down the left or right button a certain number of seconds that it would automatically move in that direction changing categories would be easy.

Or if SakirSoft makes it in steps with an additional button. Like a back button or something- so you'd need 6 buttons for punches, 1 for taunt, and 1 for back as well as the d pad.  But cycling through the categories on my select would be easy since the most sections you could possibly have is 20 maybe more but not by much, and the categories would only be 4 slots wide, although an infinite number of slots tall or deep. I guess if you move down it would display 2 more row's or just 1 row moving the other row out of view.

Meh hope that clears things up :sugoi:

So DJ-VAN what screenpack editing program do you use?
[move]Help with the Shugendo story! SPRITERS NEEDED! [/move]

ShugenDo Story writers need spriters come show us what you can do!
Re: A character select screen idea...
#13  October 01, 2007, 03:22:48 am
  • ******
  • In after lock
    • mugenguild.com/~messatsu/index.html
I suggest making a cover flow select screen. :laugh:


Many people risk their lives everyday by having Mugen.
Re: A character select screen idea...
#14  October 01, 2007, 03:35:10 am
  • avatar
  • Do I freighten you?
[move]Help with the Shugendo story! SPRITERS NEEDED! [/move]

ShugenDo Story writers need spriters come show us what you can do!