Demitri's stuff

[Demitri]

Not really sure how to start this but basically I've been interested in spriting for a while now. In 2008 it was the obsessive need to learn how to do cvs shading...and failing(I think I learned basic anti-aliasing from that though). Now I'm obviously older and I've expanded my views on sprite styles beyond the simple scope of cvs, not to mention I stalk this section often because I like what I see.

With my waning interest in mugen, I decided to take on a special project I intended to wait a few years before tackling. It has a few sprites of another pixiv artist's OC, and both the original artist and then one who did a few sprites of said character gave me permission to bring her to life in mugen. That was two years ago and I can say I haven't done a thing for her.

Recently I asked @[user id=84329]Black Hatter[/user]: to do a XIII styled sprite of her as a means to sort of motivate myself, and I think I'm finally there. However, I know my skill level is disproportionate to that motivation.
To finally get to the point, can anyone give suggestions when making certain animations?
For example, like many fighters, her stance is weird so I wanted to sort of make a breathing motion for it. I looked at some characters for reference and although I see there is more light added, I'm still not quite getting it.

I've read plenty of spriting tutorials but of course it's all very general, and don't delve deep into how certain animations should look(granted, I'm not sure how else can a person explain how to animate a punch since its sort of common sense). I know true artists draw most of the animation by hand in a few frames then manually sprite the rest/extra things like hair/cloth movement. As essentially a beginner, am I better off using other characters sprites for reference and as a base, and I guess once I get a better grasp of proportions, movement, and anatomy I could move on to fully custom sprites, or just go custom from the start and keep refining until I improve?

Can someone also explain that technique I see often where they cut up pieces of the base sprite to make the general animation before filling in the rest(I use photoshop, not sure if that makes a difference?)

I also apologize for the long winded message but I wanted to kinda ask everything at once. Any help or knowledge or even experience sharing is appreciated.

Spoiler (click to show)

I feel like I still forgot to ask a lot

[AlexSin]

Recently I asked Black Hatter to do a XIII styled sprite of her as a means to sort of motivate myself, and I think I'm finally there. However, I know my skill level is disproportionate to that motivation.
To finally get to the point, can anyone give suggestions when making certain animations?
For example, like many fighters, her stance is weird so I wanted to sort of make a breathing motion for it. I looked at some characters for reference and although I see there is more light added, I'm still not quite getting it.

I've read plenty of spriting tutorials but of course it's all very general and don't delve deep into how certain animations should look (granted, I'm not sure how else can a person explain how to animate a punch since it's sort of common sense). I know true artists draw most of the animation by hand in a few frames then manually sprite the rest/extra things like hair/cloth movement. As essentially a beginner, am I better off using other characters sprites for reference and as a base, and I guess once I get a better grasp of proportions, movement, and anatomy I could move on to fully custom sprites, or just go custom from the start and keep refining until I improve?

Can someone also explain that technique I see often where they cut up pieces of the base sprite to make the general animation before filling in the rest (I use photoshop, not sure if that makes a difference?)

This is the sprite, right?


Her stance is weird -> sketch it (be it a stickman or an actual sprite) on paper or digitally; at least you have an idea of what to do.
Breathing motion, more light added -> this depends on the lightsource and the stance the character has.
Look at the gif of the pixellated man, or even the Metal Slug sprites: http://2dwillneverdie.com/tutorial/give-your-sprites-depth-with-sub-pixel-animation/
But we're entering the sub-pixel animation territory.
Even here, how does she breathe... that's kind of a stupid question actually. But how does she move when she breathes?

Tutorials are too general -> well, of course, people don't know what you want to do. But they give general rules to follow. It's the same thing you said about animating a punch.
Go custom or edit sprites? -> do what you think is the best choice. Personally, I'm still editing sprites and images and I'm also learning a bit of anatomy by watching sprites. But not only that, I'm also drawing concepts for my original characters and they're not coming off bad as I thought. But I digress.

Cut'n'fill -> well, it's not that complicated.
You see one or some sprites, you want to do some in-betweens (or a stand animation), so instead of re-drawing all the frames you can just pick that or those sprites and cut some pieces (and if you want, rotate them), you proceed doing that for as many frames as you want; when you're finished you can:
- fill the gaps, keeping in mind the anatomy (voidednumb/HQ's method)
- draw outlines on top of the work frames you did, then shade, after that fix, eventually (Chamat's method).
I could do the same things with Photoshop, or with Gimp or with GraphicsGale: which software you use is not important, experience counts. Obviously some softwares have more tools than the others, but cutting and filling (or re-drawing frames) is not impossible, you can do it also with RotSprite + Paint.

[hatter]

For the breathing methods, maybe take a look at this submission and it's refined version by MotorRoach on deviantART:




I was going to say utilise RotSprite for rotation, but I see Alex already said that. In addition to that, I'd say try sub pixel animation (going to try my hand at it once I start DeeJay )


Also today I was watching a MotorRoach livestream, and he was spriting a Leonardo animation in TMNT Super Tournament Fighters style, and while doing the separate frames, I saw that he created a pixel stickman for each frame as a base of skeleton for the animation before spriting and doing things like muscles, finer details etc.

In addition, when you want to make an animation, try drawing the frames out, with the character as an undetailed mannequin to see if you get the motion right. :

Good luck Genesis, and hopefully we'll start art challenging each other when we free up some time!

Also concerning that KoF XIII sprite I made, I know I could have done better, but Photoshop woes = I went out of my mind for a bit.

[AlexSin]

For the breathing methods, maybe take a look at this submission and its* refined version by MotorRoach on deviantART:

The first one is better, in this case less (head) movement is better.
*its, not it's

[Demitri]

This is the sprite, right?

Yup! That was the sprite, and here was the original

Her stance is weird -> sketch it (be it a stickman or an actual sprite) on paper or digitally; at least you have an idea of what to do.

Granted, I haven't attempted to sketch it out yet, but with all the other sprites that were available, i can imagine how the animation would go generally. With this one, other than the hair movement, I'm a bit stumped. I can't imagine how the arms would move in this position.

Maybe I could just change it though...

Tutorials are too general -> well, of course, people don't know what you want to do. But they give general rules to follow. It's the same thing you said about animating a punch.

Very true. At the same time, I feel like if there were a central hub dedicated to spriters then maybe some tutorials for specific things like that would exist. Unnecessary maybe, but there could always be something useful within them like mugen tutorials.

RotSprite I'll need to try (forgot it existed). I know photoshop will give me horrid results if i rotate an arm or something.

Thanks for all the info. And hopefully I'll just be able to update this thread later as my own thing.
Trying to get this guy's shading style down-pact will take a bit longer than I thought though.


I thought the head movement on that gif was weird. lol.

[Demitri]

Instead of a new thread, figured I'd bump this old one.

I know for mugen it's fine to use other animations for reference and/or use for characters, but in a commercial project, what would the defining line be between plagiarism and reference use?

To be a little clearer, obviously if I took wolverines standing animation, added some whiskers or something and change the color, that'd be plagiarism (assuming I tried to use it in something I'm selling).

What if I'm tracing over the outline of said animation and spriting the rest on my own as something else?
Or what if I do that, and add some more frames to it?
I know copying is copying, but how far does that extend in the fighting game realm?
I mean there are but so many ways to draw a jab. I mean, yes, there are a few ways, but what if you want it to look a certain way that another character has down perfectly? Would it be wrong to use it?
I can even say I've seen animations for moves that look very similar in other fighters, hell Skullgirls definitely has a few. But like I said, there's only but so many ways to sprite certain things.

What is the defining line between plagiarism and just referencing?

[StevenB]

There are a few differemces between copying an animation (or paying tribute) and tracing (in the broad sense) an animation. The skullgirls animations reference certain animations from other fighting games but are customly made from the ground up.

the line between referencing and plagiarism is very thin, as it is with all art, really. If you trace over the animations of another artist (even if it's for a different model) it's still seen as tracing and therefore plagiarism BUT ONLY if you don't outright state it's traced and provide the original animation for reference (and in case the animation is made by an indie you should usually ask permission to trace it since it's considered polite).

So again, the line between plagiarism and referencing (or even 'paying tribute') is thin, and it can even differ between one sprite community and the next. Just to be on the safe side you can always provide all the reference you've used.

[inktrebuchet]

Tracing over existing animations is fine. In the end as long as it looks like a different character, then you are in the clear.

I recommend doing this when you first start. You will learn a lot, much quick than if you tried to start from scratch right from the start.

[walt]

^ I was wondering about that too. I had this CHUCK NORRIS game for mobile, and many of his animations were definitely taken from fighting game character animations, from Akuma, Kim Kaphwan, Charlie, Terry and so on...

... but the scale was like less than 1/2 of a normal FG sprite, and it was totally consistent with the Chuck Norris Game's style.

[StevenB]

^ I was wondering about that too. I had this CHUCK NORRIS game for mobile, and many of his animations were definitely taken from fighting game character animations, from Akuma, Kim Kaphwan, Charlie, Terry and so on...

... but the scale was like less than 1/2 of a normal FG sprite, and it was totally consistent with the Chuck Norris Game's style.

There is also an Avatar: The Last Airbender mobile game that uses animations that are outright edited from Goku's animations from Jump: Ultimate Stars. Obviously official companies can't do this because it boils down to illegal modifcation of licensed assets for profit. But it's very difficult to prove you have modified said art assets.

Obviously hobbyists don't have to deal with this though.

I agree with Ink that tracing is a good way to get accustomed to animations, especially for this like volume. If you were to trace I'd also provide the original animation just to be sure personally, but I think Ive already said that.

[inktrebuchet]

Look at Chadha from Yatagarasu, he has a ton of referenced animations.

Some are easier to spot than others. Plus the start up frames are usually changed to match the stance etc. so the animations feel a little different from the start.

[Bastard Mami]

I'd say the opossite, since ti's for commercial project even tracing is very risky ; ideally if you trace it's not over the animation but rather besides it so the anatomy, etc.. changes otherwise youa re setting yourself up for a law suit;there is this japanese site that allows you to sell games, you can even use other ips, but if they catch you tracing they take yoru game down; as in , you can amke a ebat em up starrring kyo from teh king of fighters, but if you trace/edit a sprite they take your game down.

[Demitri]

I'll keep that in mind when I start.
The anatomy thing is a very good point actually.

For arguments sake, if I traced over it but changed the height of it all by like two pixels, how could they argue that I blatantly stole it? Not that I would, but just a thought.

Look at Chadha from Yatagarasu, he has a ton of referenced animations.

Some are easier to spot than others. Plus the start up frames are usually changed to match the stance etc. so the animations feel a little different from the start.

So as long as I'm putting the effort to make it a little different, and obviously match the character anatomy and style, it should be ok?
And not downright copying of course.

Also, thanks everyone for the input. Even if im still wrong(?) This is a lot clearer now.

[Demitri]

I'm having trouble drawing/sketching one of my fav things in the universe and was wondering if someone could point me to some great references or guides to drawing boobs.

It pains me more because this sprite was going good for being from scratch with no reference, but I guess itncant be helped.

On the plus side, I'll be putting shit in this thread finally

[hatter]

On the plus side, I'll be putting shit in this thread finally

YEEEEEESSSSSSSS   

[inktrebuchet]

Well, surprisingly I haven't come across any good guides for drawing boobs.

Here's a quick tip that might help. don't shade breasts like balls. They are not shaped like that... If the light is from above, then usually you will see a almost triangle shaped shadow starting at the nipple and continued to beneath the breast. Depending on lighting there may even be a shadow under the breast from them blocking the light source. Here is an image that might help. though referencing from life photos is always the best ref.



I guess if I knew more specifically what you are having trouble with I could help more.

[100_Sad_Pandas]

This was always my favorite boob tutorial back in the day

Spoiler (click to show)

[Demitri]

I remember that one. It doesn't help me in this specific instance but it's helpful for sure.

@ink I know it doesn't help I'm being vague, I was just trying to get what I needed to make this better and show it and blah blah blah

The second row probably will help me the most in this instance. I needed reference for the one on one/front view

[Demitri]

Figured I'd show this before I scrapped it.
I was working on this. To summarize, it started off as a space pirate? then I couldnt get the chest looking how I wanted so I dumbed it down and still fucked it up lol
then i started the robo arm, and I tried doing a different shading thing to simplify future sprites, but I really can't sprite with the darkest color not being included, then I saw proportion problems, then I fixed them but messed up other stuff, and im a little frustrated so heres the scrap.

pls ignore my dirty legs, they weren't anywhere near done.

Anywho, I think I'll have to just sprite for fun a bit. This turnout is a bit disappointing and I feel a little down? Tch.

I'll either try spriting KH's Sora or Magi's Aladdin next. Leaning toward Aladdin because I like Magi a lot.

[hatter]

DUUUUUUDE that's a good start. My only gripes are the torso (should be shortened a bit) and the legs (No kneecaps?)

Don't feel down! I recall my first sprite (A CvS Aya Brea about the size of the SFA3 GBA sprites) being nothing short of disastrous! I was down, but try to get back on it, bro! You can do it!

Can't wait for more (ALAAAAADDIIIIIN )