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What is not a "True fighting game" for you? (Read 18914 times)

Started by luis2345, February 05, 2014, 08:34:51 am
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luis2345

What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#1  February 05, 2014, 08:34:51 am
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Ever heard that phrase before? "True fighting game"?

What is not a "true fighting game" for you?


Long text incoming:
If i don't count the obvious ones like Shaq fu or any unplayable non-competitive games.
I think every fighting games is a true fighting game as long as they have all the elements of competitive play.
Some games may be easier or "less complex" to play but that doesn't mean that makes them easier to master.

I used to be that kind of people who used to batch on people who played Smash bros competitively (or casually), smash is mostly known as the laughing stock of fighting games since it lacks most elements, but i was wrong, they don't lack the elements, they have them, in their own way.

The footsies,the mind games, everything is there, understanding other games helped me to increase my gameplay level at KOF, i play KOF in a competitive level at GGPO and mexican tournaments for 8 years now and i have seen beasts all over the place, i have a lot of respect for high level play , including the high level play for other "easier" games that are essentially more friendly to play for beginners but usually the veteran fighting game players do not get attracted to that kind of games, but what happens when some do? you will find out even these games can be taken really further (Which sounds really obvious to begin with).

This may sound crazy and  most people will feel skeptical about this, but even the Touhou fighters have it's really good charm, ever had a match with top tier players in any of the touhou fighters? man, they are monsters, that's when you realize that even these games that are often called "not true fighting games" have all the elements from the competitive scene of bigger name fighting games like KOF or Street fighter 3rd strike.
I took a break from kof and started playing other games that people often say that "they take no skill" and one of them was touhou hisoutensoku, that game, you have chibi characters (That bothers me quite a bit honestly, i am not into kawaii desu stuff),i was very skeptical about the spellcards system "What is this? one button supers? is this some magical girls game?", where you can combo just pressing AAAA or A>B>C, at first glance you would say "Ah that takes no skill, a lot of damage with no skill" but that's not actually true, i rarely see "AAAA" combos that much anymore in competitive play, the opponent must be really stupid to get caught in such simple stuff. That game is really rushdown oriented, it's really aggressive and rude ( Very ironical judging from how that game looks, but trust me, you need to check it out by yourself) so if you are mainly an street fighter player you will probably not like that game, it's fast paced but not as much as melty blood, i would say it's just as fast paced as KOF is. and that's the reason why i loved the gameplay (from the competitive play point of view) of it even if it is a way more easier to play game than king of fighters.

About a year ago some fighting game elitist dude was like "Go play true fighting games noob, go play kof, i would moop the floor with you" just because i posted a combo video of the touhou game, we ended up playing against each other at King of fighters 98 and king of fighters 2002 on supercade, the guy was "decent" and really overconfident and cocky but in the end he couldn't stand a chance, he got caught off guard by judging people like that, didn't take it personal myself but it's quite an interesting story.
i don't consider myself a pro because that would sound really cocky, i am just an above average player at KOF and since i got to this level i learned to give "party fighting games" a chance, i would gladly accept any matches for any of those 2 games just to prove my point a little further, but that's is just my opinion.

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Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#2  February 05, 2014, 08:42:31 am
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Niitris

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#3  February 05, 2014, 08:52:20 am
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How is Skullgirls not a "true fighting game?"

Not exactly fond of this topic btw, so don't expect a response from me.

MDI

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#4  February 05, 2014, 09:04:38 am
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Be warned of TLDR posts.

Anyway, you seem to be going in the direction of "if I don't like a game or if it isn't competitive enough, it isn't a real fighting game." Which is pretty stupid. The only time I find a game categorized as a fighting game to not be one would be in the case of party brawler type games such as Smash Bros, Dreammix TV World Fighters, etc. But really, most fighting game fans tend to think that way, regardless if they like the mentioned games or not.

luis2345 said, February 05, 2014, 08:34:51 am
go play kof, i would moop the floor with you"

How dare he moop you!

ey

Aldo

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#5  February 05, 2014, 09:08:20 am
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Snakebyte

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#6  February 05, 2014, 09:22:19 am
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PSASBR is not a real fighting game.

Smash Bros is odd. I haven't had enough experience with it to judge it enough but I played the original a fair bit. Enjoyable but more 'fun' than 'challenging', not what I look for out of a fighter but not bad in any way... We'll just go with 'different from what I'm used to' and leave it at that.

Idk beyond that.

Nero D.

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#7  February 05, 2014, 09:40:35 am
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marvel

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Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#8  February 05, 2014, 09:52:25 am
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Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#9  February 05, 2014, 10:18:51 am
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Naruto games.
And my extreme disliking of MvC keeps telling me to write it,but im fighting it

S.D.

OP is pretty stupid too.
#10  February 05, 2014, 10:38:57 am
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Person Man

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#11  February 05, 2014, 01:31:41 pm
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Final Fantasy IX.

Seriously I don't know how that one is even up for debate.

"Bad News" Hoffmann

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#12  February 05, 2014, 01:48:20 pm
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Rise of the Robots and Street Fighter (1) and Fatal Fury (1)


I mean what the hell..you can only choose 1 (RotR)  2 (Ryu or Ken) 3 (Terry, Andy Joe) in those games..i mean

uh well.

DNZRX768

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#13  February 05, 2014, 01:55:06 pm
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Argh, these kinds of threads are stupid.

Always devolve into flame wars and stuff.
Hug the Pikachus!

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Titiln

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#14  February 05, 2014, 03:38:53 pm
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[game i dont like] is not a true fighting game, because it stinks! haha!

Umezono

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#15  February 05, 2014, 04:04:33 pm
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Shit there are so many wrong things with this topic i dont know where to start

Lets preface this with saying anyone who accuses something thats obviously a real fighting game of not being a real fighting game because they dislike it are idiots. This includes everyone who mentioned Marvel and Skullgirls. Heres the reality. Youre just being a fuckin hipster when you say that shit.

Secondly if Smash is considered a fighter for the reason it is played competitively, I dont see why PSASBR or Shaq Fu dont count. Both can be played and have been played "competitevely." Smash proves that no matter how unconventional the game, if its pvp a meta can be developed and comp is possible. By this logic I dont see how less popular and deep games arent considered real. Hell even Jackie Chans Fists of Fire has a pretty involved community

Mechy

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#16  February 05, 2014, 04:10:44 pm
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No fighting game is a true fighting game without tripping.
"Multiple exclamation marks are a sure sign of a diseased mind."

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Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#17  February 05, 2014, 04:28:58 pm
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What exactly defines a fighting game, anyway?

Mechy

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#18  February 05, 2014, 04:34:41 pm
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Quote
A fighting game is a type of video game where the player controls an on-screen character and engages in close combat with an opponent. These characters tend to be of equal power and fight matches consisting of several rounds, which take place in an arena. Players must master techniques such as blocking, counter-attacking, and chaining together sequences of attacks known as "combos". Since the early 1990s, most fighting games allow the player to execute special attacks by performing specific button combinations. The genre is related to but distinct from beat 'em ups, which involve large numbers of antagonists.
"Multiple exclamation marks are a sure sign of a diseased mind."

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Renzo F

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#19  February 05, 2014, 05:17:46 pm
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I'm trying really hard to remember a game labeled as a FG that I dont really consider fitting for the genre but I can't find even one.
I think all the fuss is about if the game can be played competitively or not (which I find stupid).

Bastard Mami

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#20  February 05, 2014, 06:03:39 pm
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the op post was good I liekd it, except for the part about what is a real fighting game which is what the topic is about, lol. the wikipedia definition pasted above is good, which means that a lot fo games are fighting games, so yeah; the ones I would not consider fighting games are games that focus on a very specific sport, like wrestling and fencing (olimpics style, not samsho style).

Insigniawarfare

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#21  February 05, 2014, 06:15:08 pm
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Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#22  February 05, 2014, 07:24:02 pm
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Street Fighter, King of Fighters, MvC, Darkstalkers, Mortal Kombat and a ton of others. Stop playing these shit games. It's all about Tattoo Assassins and Eternal Champions. Am I right or am I right, bros?!

J/k, in terms of not a fighting game, my only criteria for that is that if it doesn't facilitate multiple players or focus ONLY on fighting.

Meldo

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#23  February 05, 2014, 08:02:55 pm
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Fuck off Jango, you're obviously blind to see that Tattoo Assassins and Eternal Champions are real fighting games!

Anyways, what makes a fighting game not real to me is the fact that the game looks/feels as if it's coded in Microsoft Powerpoint. Forgot what it's called now, but it has that animal/mutant theme going on

MR. IBZS II

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#24  February 05, 2014, 08:18:10 pm
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Last Edit: February 05, 2014, 08:27:07 pm by Updateaemon

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Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#25  February 05, 2014, 08:24:23 pm
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Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#26  February 05, 2014, 08:25:45 pm
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No, it's because none of those games feel like a fighting game TO ME.

Umezono

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#27  February 05, 2014, 08:29:00 pm
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how in the mighty fuck do skullgirls (huh??), mvc (what), darkstalkers (holy shit dude) and guilty gear (wtf) not feel like fighting games? are you that ignorant?

Renzo F

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#28  February 05, 2014, 08:41:52 pm
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Pssst! I think he's being ironic!

Websta

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#29  February 05, 2014, 08:43:53 pm
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How's a fighting game supposed to feel?

luis2345

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#30  February 05, 2014, 08:51:57 pm
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What i tried to say with "true fighting games" are almost any , just making very few exceptions like games like shaq fu, it is a fighting game, but it's not really a true fighting game, combos don't even exist in that game, not even 2 hits ones because there's no hitstun in that game.
I am just excluding really unplayable stuff, everything else is fine.

Unless we talk about sports games, i think these are another kind of fighting games.
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Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#31  February 05, 2014, 08:56:53 pm
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But who says you have to have combos in a game to make it a true fighting game?

A BAD game could be a fighting game nevertheless. Rise of the Robots is crap. You can't even jump over you opponent, but it is still a fighting game.

Bastard Mami

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#32  February 05, 2014, 09:10:26 pm
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square's samurai fighting game is still considered a fighting game and it also has no combos (iirc)

Renzo F

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#33  February 05, 2014, 09:17:26 pm
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Yes. Bushido Blade. BB2 it's a darn good game, lots of fun: 8 way run, multilevel environments, weapons, almost everytime you get one-hit-kills, etc. I consider it a true fighting game even if it lacks stuff like power/life bars. You don't really know when you are going to die.

TRUEMicah

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#34  February 05, 2014, 09:28:56 pm
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I'm not too big on gaming nowadays but these are games that aren't fighters IMO:
- DragonBall Z - Battle of Z
- Every SSB
- Power Stone
- Digimon Rumble Arena
- PS All Stars

I'm not sure how to categorize:
- Mortal Kombat: Shaolin Monks (Vs Mode)
- Final Fantasy Dissidia
- Twisted Metal (Obviously not a fighter but wtf is it)

Renzo F

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#35  February 05, 2014, 09:37:33 pm
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What about this:

Aldo

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#36  February 05, 2014, 09:39:00 pm
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GG isn´t a real fighting game series!
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Umezono

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#37  February 05, 2014, 09:48:00 pm
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inktrebuchet

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#38  February 05, 2014, 09:48:04 pm
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The only game that comes to mind is one of my favorites Redearth/Warzard.

Obviously its a fighting game but the way it is set up to play its story line is so unique!! and that you choose out of 4 heroes who only fight against unselectable bosses.

walt

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#39  February 05, 2014, 09:48:26 pm
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Renzo F

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#40  February 05, 2014, 09:59:38 pm
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It's so bad that every GG fan acts like this when they remember the game:


Also, only the boost mode is similar to BOR...

MR. IBZS II

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#41  February 05, 2014, 10:02:28 pm
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TRUEMicah said, February 05, 2014, 09:28:56 pm
I'm not too big on gaming nowadays but these are games that aren't fighters IMO:
- DragonBall Z - Battle of Z
- Every SSB
- Power Stone
- Digimon Rumble Arena
- PS All Stars

I'm not sure how to categorize:
- Mortal Kombat: Shaolin Monks (Vs Mode)
- Final Fantasy Dissidia
- Twisted Metal (Obviously not a fighter but wtf is it)


There was a FF fighting game?

The Sudden Rarity

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#42  February 05, 2014, 10:08:36 pm
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Wanna know what I don't consider "true fighting games"?

Super Mario Bros.
BioShock
Star Fox
Kingdom Hearts
World of Warcraft
Infamous
The Darkness
And a whole slue of others.

Know why I don't consider them fighters?  Because they're not.[/sarcasm]

All you guys are gonna do is flame games, which is indeed happening now.  I think this thread should be locked before it goes off the rails any further.

rednavi -RETIRED

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#43  February 05, 2014, 10:20:58 pm
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I 100%'d boost mode on the xbox and PC, fuck off haters! That shit was hype (Fucking epic last stage bosses with epic music).

Niitris

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#44  February 05, 2014, 10:25:12 pm
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Iced

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#45  February 05, 2014, 10:30:44 pm
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All true fighting games are games me and my buddies like all not true fighting games are games you like! neneer neneer!

This is a pretty dumb thing to discuss.

Niitris

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#46  February 05, 2014, 10:35:50 pm
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MR. IBZS II

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#47  February 05, 2014, 10:44:07 pm
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Well, that list sucked.

rednavi -RETIRED

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#48  February 05, 2014, 10:53:44 pm
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I don't like tags in general. I can't even tag people as something in specific (Like, this guy is a pervert, this other guy is really smart, etc), much less games when they themselves (Bah, rather their creators/designers/directors) can't get tagged properly.

There are times where you just can't tag a game as something in particular. That's the beauty of being original, you grab an established concept and play around with that until you get something you can call your own. Sometimes you can do that without radically change the game's genre while at times you end up mixing up elements from other genres and create something really hard to tag properly.

Games like that are often successful because they're pretty original and interesting. No wonder the Smash Bros series is so popular. This reminds me of the discussion about what's a RPG. If you go to the steam store right now and search for RPGs you'll find games like PAYDAY 2 for example, which is mostly a FPS with many RPG elements.

I just no longer care about tags and genres. A game is a game, a person is a person. A TV show is a TV show. It's such a waste of time for me to think about something nobody really has the correct answer for.

Nero D.

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#49  February 05, 2014, 11:34:56 pm
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if any of you took my marvel comment seriously, you're an idiot
i cant count the reasons i should stay

one by one they all just fade away...


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Cyanide

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#50  February 06, 2014, 12:30:48 am
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i would say it's any game where you can have more than 2 people playing against each other. 1 person playing can be a fighter because you've got the AI as p2. But any game where there are 4 of you on screen fighting at once is not a true fighting game to me. That's not the same as teams of 3 characters like MvC3 or KoF but 4 genuine players at once. Doesn't matter how sucky the underlying gameplay is, if it's 1v1 controlling players, it's a fighter. if it's 1v1v1v1 it's something else. Probably a brawler.


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Iced

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#51  February 06, 2014, 12:32:23 am
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both mortal kombat, dead or alive and even sf x tekken allowed you to do 2 vs 2 with four players.

Even mugen allows that.

Byakko

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#52  February 06, 2014, 12:37:06 am
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Not at the same time though - SFxTK has it as a special mode on a time limit.
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Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#53  February 06, 2014, 12:39:05 am
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Wait, so mugen is not a fighting game then? lol that explains it

MR. IBZS II

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#54  February 06, 2014, 12:45:43 am
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MDI

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#55  February 06, 2014, 12:47:36 am
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This thread makes me thankful that we don't have those "Is Mugen considered a fighting game?" threads anymore.
ey

Cyanide

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#56  February 06, 2014, 01:03:38 am
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Well the INTENT is 1v1. Your examples are still teamvteam. Not 1v1v1v1.


In M.U.G.E.N there is no magic button

They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance.

Byakko

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#57  February 06, 2014, 01:04:57 am
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Snakebyte

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#58  February 06, 2014, 01:15:45 am
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Erroratu said, February 05, 2014, 10:18:51 am
Naruto games.
And my extreme disliking of MvC keeps telling me to write it,but im fighting it

I disagree, they're done pretty well. Competitive/balanced or not, the sense of motion is completely different and reminds me more of Power Stone/Destrega than any traditional FG, it's something I found really refreshing. I'd like to see more of them. A game focused on rapid movement in a 3D environment, but geared towards 1v1, and balanced and deep enough to be taken seriously? I'm game.

MR. IBZS II

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#59  February 06, 2014, 01:25:40 am
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Destrega? Is that like Power Stone in the concept of the first PS(1V1, interactive, more serious) or the 2nd one(battle royale, stage transitions, more ridoculous, less interactivity aside from hazards)

Snakebyte

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#60  February 06, 2014, 01:42:30 am
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Destrega was pretty much a joke of a game, it's just the only other thing I remember with free-roaming fast movement like that instead of the locked-in opponent-oriented movement in Tekken/VF/DoA/etc. Not all that similar to Power Stone I just can't think of anything similar...er.

Umezono

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#61  February 06, 2014, 01:46:44 am
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Jesuszilla

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#62  February 06, 2014, 01:51:25 am
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Iced

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#63  February 06, 2014, 02:12:37 am
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Praising marvel and hating skullgirls is kindof ridiculous by how similar their approach to gameplay is, skullgirls has strange ammounts of fanservice and way too few characters, but anyone that makes mugen content should at least recognize how much good effort was put into it.

The more it steps away from the original designer work the better it looks imo.

I mean, this looks like a way more interesting cast than what they ended up with.

MR. IBZS II

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#64  February 06, 2014, 02:13:44 am
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A shark doctor? WIN!!!!!!!! That cast looks WAAAAAAAY better than it does now.

Jmorphman

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#65  February 06, 2014, 02:17:14 am
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I will forgive the blatant stealing of Doctor Shark from Wonderella if they make that hot guy in the wolf pelt.

Aldo

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#66  February 06, 2014, 02:21:33 am
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^ I think that guy won a poll for a DLC character?? IIRC, that´s what happened.
Chilling

Iced

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#67  February 06, 2014, 02:23:13 am
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yes he was the fifth (? ) dlc char.

Titiln

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#68  February 06, 2014, 02:27:00 am
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to actually answer the thread's question, i don't consider smash brothers and the like real fighting games, because smash strays away from the fighting game formula too much. i consider smash its own type of game. this isn't a bad thing at all, i've had a lot more fun playing smash than any regular fighting game.

Jango

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#69  February 06, 2014, 02:56:03 am
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Warden-San

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#70  February 06, 2014, 03:06:44 am
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Iced said, February 06, 2014, 02:12:37 am
Praising marvel and hating skullgirls is kindof ridiculous by how similar their approach to gameplay is, skullgirls has strange ammounts of fanservice and way too few characters, but anyone that makes mugen content should at least recognize how much good effort was put into it.

The more it steps away from the original designer work the better it looks imo.

I mean, this looks like a way more interesting cast than what they ended up with.

Not saying that Skull Girls is not a fighting game because I don't like it, but as a Marvel player I find Skull Girls to be a game I can't really get into. The game suffers from Art of Fighting 3 syndrome (All that animation just makes everything look weak and feel off) and I don't like any of the characters. The new characters save maybe for Beowulf are not really any better at all. It's like... "You don't like that boring ass guy with dragon ball hair and a giant watch nor the kawaii stuffed animal carrying girl with a knife? We put a shark in a lab coat! Are we jawesome yet?"
Iroha stripped for me

Brucelee41126

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#71  February 06, 2014, 04:17:46 am
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Well to me, a true fighting game where two or more combatants face off in match until the other concedes or loses, but also:

- Has a life system where if you hit 0, you lose and are K.O'd
- Can allow many kinds of tactics from basic to advanced
.Also, no one tactic or combo/skill decides the match or game (Such as infinite combos)
- Has a balance between the characters, where some characters aren't noticeably and blatantly broken or overpowered (Unless, of course it is a hidden bonus or boss character)
- Does not rely on luck or mischievous elements to give players or characters an advantage (In other words no chance-based gimmicks)
 -Broken or overpowered elements are not playable by default

If a game breaks two or more rules than what I stated above, it is not a real fighter to me.

Off the top of my head, Smash Brothers to me is not a fighting game, it is a party game. Believe me when I say I can get competitive in Smash but in the end it's just a party game for fun. Even the creator of the series states it is a party game.

MightyKombat

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#72  February 06, 2014, 04:25:42 am
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To me Ougon Musou Kyoku isn't a real fighter because you can still hear the defeated victim breathing when you win! What kinda shit is that?! They're supposed to be lying still and silent you worthless piece of shit game!

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S.D.

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#73  February 06, 2014, 04:29:06 am
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Guys, I was also joking in my previous post. If you took that seriously you're stupid.

Titiln

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#74  February 06, 2014, 04:39:35 am
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smash isn't really a party game, unless you mean that because it's a game everybody likes to play and have fun with, in which case "party game" extends to a lot of things. rock band is (well, was) played often at parties, but it's a rhythm game. i usually associate party game with minigame collections and the like.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_party_video_games

MightyKombat

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#75  February 06, 2014, 04:43:07 am
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Smash is more about just having fun playing a silly brawl type game and nerding out over Nintendo history and stuff really, even if its possible to make up competitive rules for it.
There was a sig here. Its gone now (thanks photobucket ya fecks)

Titiln

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#76  February 06, 2014, 04:47:43 am
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i hate the idea that smash is just about having fun because it implies games like street fighter are a goddamn pro torture instead of something you can have fun with

Zemilia

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#77  February 06, 2014, 05:04:21 am
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MightyKombat said, February 06, 2014, 04:43:07 am
Smash is more about just having fun playing a silly brawl type game and nerding out over Nintendo history and stuff really, even if its possible to make up competitive rules for it.

Even if the rules are mighty restrictive for the sake of balance.
Then again, Smash does have some.. "fighters terminology" in there (hitboxes, cancels, semi-comboing, etc.), so I can see why it's considered a fighting game. But at the end of the day, it's more about requiring a bit of luck to win (As in try to survive as hard as you can without getting knocked off the screen).

Nero D.

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#78  February 06, 2014, 05:07:22 am
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as far as "just for fun" thats definitely not the case cuz some competitive smash communities are fucking competitive as shit my god


also street fighter is not "fun" anymore (some people have subjective opinions over it) because of frame data
i cant count the reasons i should stay

one by one they all just fade away...


http://nero-blanco.deviantart.com/

Aldo

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#79  February 06, 2014, 05:12:27 am
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Yeah, frame data stuff made SF incredibly less fun to get into it. You learn the freaking frame advantage or the one frame links or you get beated & worked around very easily. Plenty of fighting games are like that.
Chilling

Titiln

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#80  February 06, 2014, 05:23:57 am
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Zemilia said, February 06, 2014, 05:04:21 am
But at the end of the day, it's more about requiring a bit of luck to win (As in try to survive as hard as you can without getting knocked off the screen).
doesn't that apply to all fight games then (try to survive as hard as you can without losing all your lifebar)

Jango

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#81  February 06, 2014, 06:53:02 am
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I think he means abot surviving as long as you can dealing with elements that aren't under your control.

Titiln

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#82  February 06, 2014, 07:04:03 am
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what i said still applies since nothing my opponent does in a fighting game is under my control.

if you take away items from smash brothers, there's barely any luck involved. things like distance after getting hit and your character's recovery (except luigi) are constant

Jesuszilla

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#83  February 06, 2014, 07:32:50 am
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Then there's Shingo who can randomly get criticals, Dan's Koryuken that makes him randomly invincible...

luis2345

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#84  February 06, 2014, 07:44:51 am
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PG_Kamiya said, February 06, 2014, 07:32:50 am
Then there's Shingo who can randomly get criticals, Dan's Koryuken that makes him randomly invincible...

And then there's Super turbo, it has random damage, random "dizzyness damage" ,random hitstun and blockstun.
I think since Sirlin started working on Sf2 HD remix that feature (or glitch) is gone.
http://www.mugen-infantry.net/forum/index.php?topic=64575
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Warden-San

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#85  February 06, 2014, 08:38:38 am
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luis2345 said, February 06, 2014, 07:44:51 am
And then there's Super turbo, it has random damage, random "dizzyness damage" ,random hitstun and blockstun.
I think since Sirlin started working on Sf2 HD remix that feature (or glitch) is gone.
That.
That mechanic pissed me off so many times. Like no. Fei Long YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO DIE I flash kicked you and you were at a mere sliver of your health and you LIVED!

Iroha stripped for me

S.D.

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#86  February 06, 2014, 09:27:02 am
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People are mentioning random mechanics and they didn't mention Phoenix Wright? It's not like it matters, the core game is more or less the same.
PG_Kamiya said, February 06, 2014, 07:32:50 am
Dan's Koryuken that makes him randomly invincible...
It's not completely random, in one of the games every fourth Kouryuuken is invincible. I don't remember if it's a VS game or Alpha though.

MR. IBZS II

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#87  February 06, 2014, 12:29:51 pm
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CN: Punch Time Explosion isn't a real fighting game to me then, because of how glitchy and broken it was. That, and it was just like Brawl.

AlexSin

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#88  February 06, 2014, 01:00:17 pm
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"Bad News" Hoffmann

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#89  February 06, 2014, 01:09:39 pm
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To be honest..this is one of the worst threads and discussions i have seen in the Fighting Games Section here ever. Almost Shit-Thread worthy.

Renzo F

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#90  February 06, 2014, 05:40:08 pm
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Aldo said, February 06, 2014, 05:12:27 am
Yeah, frame data stuff made SF incredibly less fun to get into it. You learn the freaking frame advantage or the one frame links or you get beated & worked around very easily. Plenty of fighting games are like that.
So you are saying that the game isn't fun because there's people who knows more about the game than you?
There's a lot of stuff you can do around framedata-oriented players, like baits, or simply... don't playing dumb.

Byakko

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#91  February 06, 2014, 05:41:59 pm
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Renzo F said, February 06, 2014, 05:40:08 pm
So you are saying that the game isn't fun because there's people who knows more about the game than you?
More like people who don't learn them have no option and don't stand a chance against those who do. It's very common.
If I struggled to the end of my determination, to the end of my way of life with my followers, if the result is ruin, then this ruin is inevitable. Grieve. Shed tears. But you cannot regret.

felineki

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#92  February 06, 2014, 05:46:40 pm
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luis2345 said, February 06, 2014, 07:44:51 am
And then there's Super turbo, it has random damage, random "dizzyness damage" ,random hitstun and blockstun.
I think since Sirlin started working on Sf2 HD remix that feature (or glitch) is gone.
It's not a glitch, the randomness is definitely there intentionally. I don't think hitstun and blockstun are ever random though.

TRUEMicah

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#93  February 06, 2014, 05:50:25 pm
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Umezono said, February 05, 2014, 09:48:00 pm
can you elaborate as to why they aren't fighters
IMO They are more platform'ish than typical fighters. 
They are very different when in terms of technical movement, patterns and styles.

Renzo F

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#94  February 06, 2014, 05:55:44 pm
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DKDC said, February 06, 2014, 05:41:59 pm
More like people who don't learn them have no option and don't stand a chance against those who do. It's very common.
There's a lot of elements besides framedata that make up your game. You could know stuff like Bison's LK Scissor Kick startup is 10 frames or Makoto LP Hayate is -8 on block, but if you don't have good execution, footsies, good reads, mixups and stuff like that you'll get screwed easily.

Blaming just one game element for losing is rather dumb.

Byakko

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#95  February 06, 2014, 06:09:54 pm
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Footsies and baits often relies on frame data and one frame links, so those who know them are at an advantage over those who don't, even when using the same tactics. Having a good read won't protect you if the other party uses those same things on you with the advantage of one frame links.
Of course, there's nothing weird if someone knowing the same tricks and frame data + one frame links is just better than you so it's normal if you get beaten - but the point still stands that when those come in play, if everything else is the same, the gap in skills goes down the shitter much faster on games that rely more heavily on them than games with other systems to bridge that gap.
If I struggled to the end of my determination, to the end of my way of life with my followers, if the result is ruin, then this ruin is inevitable. Grieve. Shed tears. But you cannot regret.

Renzo F

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#96  February 06, 2014, 06:16:17 pm
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Wait, how a game cannot rely on frame data? The basic principle behing almost all games is that there are moves that are safe or unsafe under certain conditions.

I think it's just I see fighting games in a different way than you, I had a lot of arguments with people who play and don't understand why are losing, blaming the fact that "they don't like SF4 because when they played other games like 3rd strike stuff was more about instincts and less about math". The truth is it always has been the same.

Bastard Mami

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#97  February 06, 2014, 06:19:55 pm
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iw as gonna say something like that, we did not really have frame data back in the late 90s while palying kof so it was about memoriing which atacks could counter which other attacks, it was not different to frame data practically and i don't see how that has changed over the years, except for memorizing number instead of attacks.

Byakko

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#98  February 06, 2014, 06:26:14 pm
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Renzo F said, February 06, 2014, 06:16:17 pm
Wait, how a game cannot rely on frame data? The basic principle behing almost all games is that there are moves that are safe or unsafe under certain conditions.
It's everywhere, of course, but some games have systems that allow one who doesn't know them to get by. Systems related to armor, cancels, speed, life, you name it. For example, I'd say King of Fighters in general has less issues with links and advantages because it has a lot more cancels than Street Fighter, many characters have something like basic > command normal > special etc. while SF has few specific cancels at best, and don't get a long string of combos based on them. And because SF has less of them, a player would need to learn one frame links to get similar results. But it's a lot harder to learn those than KoF's cancels, because KoF is more streamlined for many characters and less strict, meaning SF links require precise input on top of memorizing them. Even if KoF also has links, there's a lesser need to learn them because you just have the normal cancels. (that's just an example)
On the other hand, SF4 gained the Focus system which was a solid option against "frame data math and links lol". It brought a lot of other strategies around it, more or less complex, though.
If I struggled to the end of my determination, to the end of my way of life with my followers, if the result is ruin, then this ruin is inevitable. Grieve. Shed tears. But you cannot regret.
Last Edit: February 06, 2014, 06:29:23 pm by DKDC

rednavi -RETIRED

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#99  February 06, 2014, 06:29:01 pm
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I guess the fighting game fanbase is more obnoxious nowadays that they have tools to get collision boxes and framedata. Like, I can't enjoy a conversation about a certain character held by two other people at all when framedata is brought in, it's so unbearable and boring, ugh. Like, Jesus Christ, some people just LOVE to argue about how terrible X character is because some of his moves are 1 frame unsafe. Yeah good luck doing all that math while playing the game.

c001357

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#100  February 06, 2014, 06:49:51 pm
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on a fundamental level fighting games are based on frame data since they take place in time, thus frames
i mean, you can argue how people can ignore it but it doesnt mean it stops mattering when they do

Renzo F

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#101  February 06, 2014, 08:14:29 pm
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^ Exactly.

It's not that I will go everywhere saying "Haaaa, you character sucks because is -3 after LP Shoryu, mine is -2". It's just that players memorize what works and what not against certain characters and attacks.

I too despise when people get way too math-based to argue about tiers and stuff like that, but what I really love about FGs is learning the "science" behind it.

MR. IBZS II

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#102  February 06, 2014, 09:40:30 pm
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Frame data? What? Anyway, another example could be Battle Arena D.O.N. It was basically a Mario Party minigame made into a full game if you think about it.

MAO11

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#103  February 06, 2014, 09:48:48 pm
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in my experience only sf fanboys talks like that and the fangirls always says daigo,daigo,daigo. kof fans always talks about mai's boobs and complains why their favorite characters aren't in the game.

Seadragon77

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#104  February 06, 2014, 10:20:03 pm
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Oh boy... I'll skip the question. My opinion is probably going to do nothing but fan more flames over this roaring campfire of a thread.

Jango

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#105  February 07, 2014, 12:29:35 am
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地獄の花 said, February 06, 2014, 09:48:48 pm
in my experience only sf fanboys talks like that and the fangirls always says daigo,daigo,daigo.
Almost every SF fangirl I know will namedrop Daigo at some point to prove their cred I guess. The day I meet a SF fangirl who namedrops GeoffTheHero, I will propose to her right then and there.

Nero D.

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#106  February 07, 2014, 12:37:56 am
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tier lists also "ruined" fighters (specially sf) because they're stupid and get disproven all the time when a " low tier" char wins a tourney and everyone plays with them online cuz of that when people didn't care to play with them cuz tier lists said they were low tier


except 3rd strike of course, q is just shit out of luck tier wise
i cant count the reasons i should stay

one by one they all just fade away...


http://nero-blanco.deviantart.com/

rednavi -RETIRED

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#107  February 07, 2014, 12:41:47 am
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Oh God, tier lists are so retarded. I laugh at the people who create them a month after a game was released. They never bring anything good, they're just there to justify why you picked or not a character. Gen winning Evo was such a slap in the face for all the tier whores lol.

S.D.

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#108  February 07, 2014, 12:44:46 am
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Bastard Mami

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#109  February 07, 2014, 12:48:04 am
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What's retarded is guys thinking they have a guaranteed win just because they choose an higher tier character.

MDI

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#110  February 07, 2014, 12:56:50 am
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Oh God is this going to turn into a Tourney Fighter vs Casual Fighter thread?
ey

S.D.

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#111  February 07, 2014, 12:57:46 am
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TempesT

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#112  February 07, 2014, 12:58:01 am
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you can't mixup a blind man, and you can't out think a brick ~skisonic
Street fighting is all about analysis, prediction, and reaction. That's it.

Byakko

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#113  February 07, 2014, 12:58:16 am
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MDI said, February 07, 2014, 12:56:50 am
Oh God is this going to turn into a Tourney Fighter vs Casual Fighter thread?
That's what it's been about since the first post, what did you think "true fighting game" meant ? (maybe not what the people posting were doing, but it was around that subject)
If I struggled to the end of my determination, to the end of my way of life with my followers, if the result is ruin, then this ruin is inevitable. Grieve. Shed tears. But you cannot regret.

MDI

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#114  February 07, 2014, 01:01:01 am
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ey

S.D.

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#115  February 07, 2014, 01:04:26 am
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Ugh, that's a pretty dumb mindset.

People can play whoever they like, tier lists aren't definite and in the end of the day the player is the one who makes the difference but they still help people realize which character has the most tools or it even helps for specific match up.

Renzo F

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#116  February 07, 2014, 03:06:59 pm
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Yes, I find it more useful for matchups than anything else. But even that is subjectve territory...

Nero D.

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#117  February 07, 2014, 06:45:57 pm
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yea that's pretty much all I use em for, matchups


because again, q, 10-0 matchup against makoto in her favor #getfucked
i cant count the reasons i should stay

one by one they all just fade away...


http://nero-blanco.deviantart.com/

Jmorphman

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#118  February 07, 2014, 07:00:29 pm
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Bad News GBK said, February 06, 2014, 01:09:39 pm
To be honest..this is one of the worst threads and discussions i have seen in the Fighting Games Section here ever. Almost Shit-Thread worthy.
There have been way, way, way worse threads than this one. And hey, I found out about that hot guy from Skullgirls, so I think it counts as a win.

S.D.

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#119  February 07, 2014, 09:04:56 pm
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Shame on you for not knowing about Beowulf.
That's the only reason I'm willing to play that game again.

Jmorphman

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#120  February 07, 2014, 09:05:30 pm
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The funny thing is I know I've seen him before, multiple times even. But it just didn't click till now!

luis2345

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#121  February 08, 2014, 05:44:05 am
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It's pretty common (I have seen it so often i even think it's an stereotype) that the players who are always talking so technical with terms like frame advantage, frame links, mixup, setup,pressure,blockstring
And who also talk or argue about tier lists and matchups are usually pretty mediocre players who do not apply anything of what they are talking about in a real match, instead they imitate strats(even if they don't know what's the point of such strats)  they see from EVO tournaments and most can't play with more than 3 characters, at all.
Some really good and ridiculously advanced players don't even know what exactly these terms mean.
Not just in street fighter but any fighting game.

Tier lists and matchups only have a real influence in really top level play,  two "average joes" do not take their characters to the limit, some tier lists (very few) assume that both players have mastered the characters they talk about
But tiers keep changing quite often, it's useless to even bother caring about them.
Matchups in the other hand, they are pretty accurate since they are based from many many past experiences and data, matchups do matter but only if both sides of the matchup have mastered both characters.
http://www.mugen-infantry.net/forum/index.php?topic=64575
By Matrimelee
Luis2345 Video thread
AI\'s : Cassandra,Fliz,Angel,Kung fu Man,Ai,Yuri,Adon
Last Edit: February 08, 2014, 05:48:13 am by luis2345

Renzo F

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#122  February 08, 2014, 05:17:23 pm
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Aren't tier lists built from matchup info? :/ Excepting the ones that are more like "I can't deal with this character so I'm gonna say is top tier"

Niitris

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#123  February 08, 2014, 06:12:22 pm
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Mostly, but it also takes effectiveness of tools into consideration.

Tier lists are slightly overrated imo. While most all of them are some semblance of correct (because an average character has no chance against the 4 Gods in MvC2), a good number of tier listings don't take very subtle things into consideration (jump height, walk speed, etc...). Some characters are made to overwhelmingly move around more than to just straight up attack you with powerful moves (doesn't work in Street Fighter as much since movement options are minimal compared to other 2D fighters). Also, game mechanics can sometimes help balance the cast.

Another thing it normally neglects is character usage. Not every player knows the ins and outs of every character (which is why some people prefer games with smaller casts). While most low tier characters really aren't as good as the rest of the cast, some are just simply thrown in the middle because they're just not as explored as other characters for varying reasons. This explains why Xian (Gen) was able to beat Tokido (Akuma) at Evo2K13 (which Rednavi mentioned earlier). Gen is a rather unorthodox character who doesn't exactly "stand out"; naturally, most people wouldn't know just how dangerous he can be. When Daigo extensively researched the Ryu-Gen matchup some time later, he proceeded to body Xian in a FT10.

Finally, in a well balanced game (in which the notion of near-perfect balance is also something I don't think a enormously big deal), the gap between the best and the middle isn't that huge anyway.

Jmorphman said, February 07, 2014, 07:00:29 pm
There have been way, way, way worse threads than this one.

It certainly started out like it would be one of those threads. :P

Snakebyte

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#124  February 08, 2014, 09:38:50 pm
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I've always been under the impression that, aside from a couple of obvious bottom-tier characters, Tekken has a very 'narrow' tier list and the gap between most characters isn't all that significant, as opposed to the Marvel games where it's a giant gulf that'll pretty much fuck you over if you choose poorly. On the other hand, I'm a massive Tekken fanboy. How accurate is this?

luis2345

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#125  February 08, 2014, 11:40:45 pm
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Snakebyte said, February 08, 2014, 09:38:50 pm
I've always been under the impression that, aside from a couple of obvious bottom-tier characters, Tekken has a very 'narrow' tier list and the gap between most characters isn't all that significant, as opposed to the Marvel games where it's a giant gulf that'll pretty much fuck you over if you choose poorly. On the other hand, I'm a massive Tekken fanboy. How accurate is this?

Not quite sure, but i remember i have seen boss characters making it to the finals , some dragon thing that could do more than 50% damage with 3 hits, never been into the tekken community at all.

Renzo F said, February 08, 2014, 05:17:23 pm
Aren't tier lists built from matchup info? :/ Excepting the ones that are more like "I can't deal with this character so I'm gonna say is top tier"

Yes, good tier lists are, but some people make tier lists based out of two things: Damage and character usage.
Real and true good tier lists are useful just as a tool to know of what you are dealing with, good tier lists take into consideration the limitations and capabilities of the characters not just damage alone and how "popular" the character is.
For example in king of fighters 2002 , Kim vs Mature.

Kim is considered a high tier character and mature a mid-low tier character i believe.
Kim's moves are mostly safe even if you screw up, mature's moves are almost suicide.
Kim's combos are easier and deal a lot of damage, Mature's are not that easy and they deal way less damage.
Kim can land combos easily and his hit confirms are easier aswell, Mature needs to be really close to the opponent or her combos can whiff and the hit confirm is rather difficult compared to kim's.
If you screw up a combo as kim, you are most of the time completely safe, But if mature screws up any combo, she's really vulnerable.
Kim doesn't need to spend meter bars to deal a lot damage, Mature needs meter to deal decent damage.
Kim is more mobile in general, mature doesn't have much "stuff you have never seen" tactics.
One of kim's supers is safe on block, the others sometimes are, Mature's don't deal that much damage and if your opponent blocks it you are doomed.
Kim's most damaging combos, even the 100% damage ones are basic stuff,  Mature's most damaging combos can't even get past of 60% and most of them are really hard to do (exhibition combo kind of hard) and they are not really worth it.
Even if you are really skilled as mature kim will always be a nightmare (supposing you are fighting a decent kim), i had a friend who was like "hey, i am learning how to beat kim as mature on ggpo lately, its really hard"


That kind of stuff are where matchups and tierlists are coming from.
That's why people like kof 98 a lot , it's the most balanced kof known, kim wasn't like that backthen.

 




http://www.mugen-infantry.net/forum/index.php?topic=64575
By Matrimelee
Luis2345 Video thread
AI\'s : Cassandra,Fliz,Angel,Kung fu Man,Ai,Yuri,Adon
Last Edit: February 08, 2014, 11:45:32 pm by luis2345

Byakko

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#126  February 08, 2014, 11:50:39 pm
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Quote
Real and true good tier lists are useful just as a tool to know of what you are dealing with, good tier lists take into consideration the limitations and capabilities of the characters not just damage alone and how "popular" the character is.
The problem is finding tier lists that are actually good. Unless you're part of the community that's building one, usually they don't come with a manual listing justifications for matchups, so it's hard to tell when you come across a random list if it's legit or bogus. And more often than not, they're the latter. It's obvious why tier lists can be regarded as a joke unless you're really part of those pumping actual experience into one.
If I struggled to the end of my determination, to the end of my way of life with my followers, if the result is ruin, then this ruin is inevitable. Grieve. Shed tears. But you cannot regret.

Renzo F

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#127  February 09, 2014, 09:31:12 pm
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I don't really know guys which tier lists are you referring to, the one that came to mind are the ones based on a matchup score, placing the character with the best score on top.

It's not like I read something like "this character has 140 points, bit since it walls really fast, let's place him a little higher".

I don't really think those lists are like a bible but they make sense really often. If I do, I'll be playing Fei or Akuma instead of Makoto or Bison.
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