DKDC said, April 18, 2014, 07:15:31 pm

I don't think Joe should be centered around "true kick-boxing moves" with a lot of technique.

Agreed.
What do you feel about this:
in order to convey his speed a rushing move where he ducks a fireball first and then grabs  (hcb punch,  if you press kick he knees, if you press punch he headbutts)
A rushing multi punch kind of move like what Decapre got, just rushing and brawling, for his qcf punch
A auto guard into hit counter move ( hold pose then strike) where if he hits the opponent blocking he gets damaged, although slightly
Crack shoot, sliding kick attack with three heights, based on cody move.


In order to remember his bases his block and stuff like that could show his influences, with him blocking with his leg.

Taunt could be him punching himself and gaining powerbar over it while losing a pixel or two of life per second of taunt.

i dunno how many hyper moves this game going to have, but i would include something that damaged him, like, headbutting the opponent , climbing them up, jumping to the far wall and then back with a elbow, ending with both in pain on the ground. 
Backyard wrestling mixed with kickboxing, something that a brawler that had to give up the ghost ended up using instead of stuff with finesse.

If going for brutality, an eloquent "kick'em while they're down" would do wonders, as would a number of moves that would could lead to that (sort of like Mila's Takedown in DoA5, only Joe would be sure to remain standing up, or close enough to that).

【ＭＦＧ】Iced said, April 18, 2014, 07:37:00 pm

something like this?

That and/or stomping on them like in Yamazaki's super.

I'm thinking he should have kicks and punches that show he has great training, but an erratic behavior and approach to these moves, like they were warped by fight club-ing, so I wouldn't insist on headbutts everywhere and the likes. The ducking dash could be in a weird crooked position, but a perfect ankle-breaking, posture-smashing, sweeping kick would follow (as an alternate to the grab and knee bash). It might be too much if all the variants are nuts.
Ruffian Kick-inspired move works if the kicks themselves have animations that show he got violent and not right in the head with pit fights.
The rest can work. Like the elbow drop super.
Something like Tekken's Ultimate Tackle series, yeah. Yamazaki's kicks... Only if there's just a couple, he shouldn't be completely insane like him either.

The way these comments make me think of it, his defense and weaker attacks, used to try and open up the opponent, should have a trained/refined look to them - but their follow-up should be the brutal stuff once he's made sure he can land them.

For a throw, for exmaple, the part involving grabbing the opponent and tossing him to the ground should look well-practiced, but that happens afterwards, while not Yamazaki-insane, should display a blatant disregard for the opponent's well-being.

Also, he should know better than to lead with his head - bad idea, gives the opponent an easy target and messes up his hair.

I'm with DKDC. He started out with a foundation for kick boxing but it's been twisted by brawling. I like the wolverine type attack. Could be D,D+P
He should also have a leaping pursuit like Darkstalkers with U+K while they are downed. It can be a more typical leap attack like where he lands with his knee on ground and fist. No damage comes to him if he hits or misses. Just free damage on knowckdown if it connects. He'll need extra help like that since some of his attacks cause himself damage.

Did anyone like any of the 3 defensive/offensive ideas I listed earlier? Cody V-ism block or parry or that counter attack while being in hit stun?

Example of counter attack out of hitstun would be to press SP while in hitstun and he flashes red once makes crazy face and comes in with a haymaker.

Might have to play with timings and or meter usage if the counter techniques prove too overpowered but in most cases the opponent should be able to block before getting hit or jab him back out of it again.

Iced: 3 supers per character ala super select like SF3 EX attacks as well

The backlash counter sounds like a cool move but I'm worried it would be too easy to use it by mistake when it isn't warranted. Like, canceling a gethit that's about to end anyway, when the opponent wasn't going to keep attacking, and you're getting punished for it (either it has a cost, or it simply makes you even more open if the opponent waits it out, watches you swing big, and demolishes you with their own counter). If it has a too strong drawback, something like that would force you to get extremely technical and cautious with him - which doesn't sound like it makes sense for such a character. Even if it's given a big incentive one way or another.
And if it doesn't have a drawback like decreased defense at the very least, then it's just overpowered compared to everyone else. And a decreased defense would just make him even more vulnerable to a counter, forcing him to be even more cautious. Power consumption, I don't think that's an end-all solution to not making moves overpowered. Here again, if you use it by mistake, you're getting countered but you're also losing powerbar. That's just too dangerous. So I'm not really seeing a way to make it work out.

A variation of super armor building up on that idea would make more sense, I think. Like, he has a special move that looks normal, you can counter it, he's going to get hit, but he'll grit his teeth and get right back in your face and finish the move he started anyway. Similar to a super armor (that does lose some life), but with a flinch animation that goes right back into the end of the attack.

Cody's V-Ism block would just be a dodge-counter special. The ducking dash type of move would give the same result, I don't think replacing the block with a swaying dodge is so interesting, gameplay-wise, it sounds like fancy eye-candy that tries to look fun but doesn't actually help. Was it any interesting for Cody ? I never played him in V-Ism (I never played V-Ism)

He's the easiest to beat Bison with while in V-Ism because the super psycho crusher goes right beside him while he blocks with no chip or push back.

I was thinking if it got used that he should have 2 variants of the dodge. One that rocks him left and one that rocks him right so it looks like he's swaying between their movements and not just going the same way. Kind of like Steve Fox has in TxSF.

The attack back while being hit could be done by pressing punch and kick of the same strength too so you don't do it as accidentally. The only time you use those are for taunts, custom combos, and throws so it's not likely you'll mess up with that.

I just love those brutal roundhouses; suggesting Bryan (or Bruce, for that matter) for moveset reference would be dumb. Joe strikes me as more of a dirty, brutal, rugged fighter than a highly trained kick boxing savant. Of course, I also like the idea of mixing trained movements with brutal follow-ups.

Ground pound should definitely be more Yamazaki in nature than the wolverine gif; Sean already sorta has that move. Maybe even something like Vanilla Ice's super from the Capcom JJBA game?

Just No Point said, April 18, 2014, 08:05:14 pm

I like the wolverine type attack. Could be D,D+P

Raw?
On a downed opponent?
Follow-up to moves that knock opponents to the floor (sweep, throw(s), etc...)?
Throw follow-up to close-up heavy hits, not unlike the ability to use throws from combos like in Final Fight?
All of the above?

Speaking of throws, the arena brutality angle makes me think of modifications to the throws when the victim's against the wall, like in 3D ighters like DoA - not typically SF-ish, but Joe's from the days long before SF had settled on any notion of "typical", so there's stuff he could get away with to make up for his more grounded style.

Quote

He should also have a leaping pursuit like Darkstalkers with U+K while they are downed. It can be a more typical leap attack like where he lands with his knee on ground and fist. No damage comes to him if he hits or misses. Just free damage on knowckdown if it connects. He'll need extra help like that since some of his attacks cause himself damage.

Sounds good to me - and sort of also plays into the 3D fighter thing, in a way - not so sure about his attacks hurting him, at least when he's got enough power bar not to need that.

Quote

Did anyone like any of the 3 defensive/offensive ideas I listed earlier? Cody V-ism block or parry or that counter attack while being in hit stun?

Example of counter attack out of hitstun would be to press SP while in hitstun and he flashes red once makes crazy face and comes in with a haymaker.

I tend to prefer the idea of a counter out of heavy enough hitstun (wouldn't want to to work off something fast like a jab) being a throw, like DoA's holds. Maybe paying for it with some power bar, so it can't be infinitely abused - if the opponent's confident enough to try a heavy swing at him, he'll take it for the opportunity to be up close enough for a throw - which in turn can put the countered victim on the floor for some further punishment.
It would be, of course, impossible against projectiles.

Some games have characters that get to teleport out of the way when hit, sometimes for an attack that might not hit - Hanzo and Galford in some Samurai Shodown games - and those attacks are free since they're not guaranteed damage. With power bar to spend there's room to make this work, I think - DoA has ways to get away with it despite like a "currency" to spend like a power bar, so I figure taking the damage, having the reflexes to execute the counter and paying in power bar should be fair, give or take some tweaking in the amount used up.

Alright, three supers then

 
giving up the ghost
- the before mentioned hyper where he leaps off and elbow drops from the wall
desperation versions, giving up the ghost gains body stomp after


Emperor's knee
he performs a tiger knee type move, followed by a kick at the apex to throw the opponent down
desperation does more hits and a second knee strike


Driving up the stakes
he does a beer drinking anim, gains trailing afterimages and can combo easier after


The ghost one would damage him, the stakes one would just add speed and make his combos easier and the emperor one would use his classical training.


Alternates:

A leaping attack where he drives the opponent head down and proceeds to stomp them

A counter type could be fun if it really pressed how fast he could be

About the mounting and punching, that could work as a simple throw, unless you want him to be more of a grappler, having situational throw moves.

He could have a sway move like Dudley, but instead of swaying backwards he would sway very low, so he can dodge projectiles.
Ofcourse he should have a strike move out of that sway for dat counter attack.
I don't know shouldn't we move this to a newly made Joe thread? It's not like we're derailing anything since it's the char thread, but it's all about Joe now, it might be handier if we have all this Joe idea enginneering in a Joe only thread.

I hadn't ironed everything out yet, I had ideas for a step-in move with follow ups, ala Jin in SFxT, called Ghost Step. It would go under projectiles with correct timing. Follow ups would be a close knee lift that pops the opponent into the air for a juggle hit, a strong spinning kick to the mid-section, maybe one or two more. I also envisioned a jumping downward elbow slash, would sort of be his version of a Jaguar Kick-type move as far as functionality goes. Hadn't really gotten much further than that.

I always just try to envision how Capcom would have updated him if they did, how they'd make him fit into the roster if they put him in a new Street Fighter game. They seem to take a less is more approach for a lot of characters, emphasizing fewer specials but making sure they're all useful in certain situations.

, you and I actually even pointed out the exact same move ( mine ended in a grapple yours ended in an attack but otherwise their exact function and dodge mechanics were the same).

So I think Iced and I were in agreement with the concept of the Ghost Step. Right now I have three follow ups planned. The first is Pop-Up Knee (working name), which is very close ranged but pops the opponent up for a juggle (one or two hits max). The second is Scythe Kick, a spinning kick to the mid section that has good range and speed and knocks the opponent down. The third is Slash Elbow, where Joe fakes low and then does a downward moving elbow slash. It would have a lot of start-up but would be an overhead.

To go with that I imagined a move called Ghost Fade, which is a backwards moving version, with either the same follow ups or a set of different ones, still deciding.

Another special I had planned is Screaming Elbow, which is a jumping elbow slash that would act as sort of his version of Jaguar Kick. Different strengths would give him different distances with different arcs.

I also thought about lifting that nasty knee attack that Bryan Fury has in SFxT, the one that looks a bit like a Tiger Knee, but when it hits he drives them down with his knee. There could also be a follow up by pressing D,D+P or K and he'd add a ground pound or a stomp, to show his violent side.

He may need an anti-air special, or he could just have a normal or command normal that has nice priority and could be his go-to anti-air. I say this because I'm having a hard time coming up with an anti-air special that isn't a standard DP-type move, rising knee, or something like that.

His 3 supers should all have very different uses, and I liked most of Iced's ideas for them, especially Driving Up the Stakes (though I think a name change is in order, maybe "Happy Hour" or something like that), where he drinks a beer or takes a hit off of a bottle of liquor and gets trailing after-images or a strength boost, something like that. Suggestions here are welcome, but given Capcom's penchant for doing this themselves, I don't think it would be a bad idea to make one of them an auto-combo type deal, or at least something that uses existing animations from other moves.

Maybe a combination of Iced's other two ideas could work, he does the Bryan Fury knee smash move, drives them down, and then jumps and repels off the wall, doing a huge elbow drop (Giving Up the Ghost is a good name for this, IMO).

About hand-on-the-bicep insult. That was unexpected, but interesting neat 'lil thing to build character. The thing is - I don't see it working well on forward dash. On back dash it's like pulling back, but promising to kick ass(with intention to enrage opponent so he rush blindly and receive something like Rick Strowd's Divine Blast), while on forward dash - I can't see any meaning behind this gesture, why taunt when you can actually deliver a punch? More than that, in fight it's unneeded arms movement, when you dashing to enemy you won't do any unnecessary arm movements, only those for protection or easing strike 'coz if you spending time on gestures, rather then combat position you'll get punch in da face right into the window you made with those gestures."
"About potential moves. People already said a lot of bases, some Yu-Yu-Hakusho characters like Kuwabara or Chu might also work(stomping and spraying alcohol looks like nice moves for Joe). What IMO was uncovered - projectiles. As he is not the type to throw energy balls I think he may have 3 kinds of projectiles: rocks, dust and mentioned earlier alcohol, bottled or in case of Chu's move not. Picking rocks will make him too much like Cody, so instead og picking 'em Joe might just kick 'em with different strength = different arcs. As for dust, you probably saw Jubilee by Chimoru, she have move to make enemy temporary blind, that's the case - rise some dust and punch/kick while enemy is blinded(either variation with attack after blinding included in move or without it can work, maybe even dust then his firm kick special as one move). I don't really like unlimited bottles to throw idea, but drinking can of beer to replenish energy with ability of interrupt it to spray move like Chu's(make him spray it forward or in air with no damage but push effect) might work nice.

Also if talking about Yuu Yuu Hakusho(which I wrote wrongly for some reason, maybe it's Yu-Gi-Oh's doing) and projectiles Sensui has interesting move on his qcf+a in Yuu Yuu Hakusho: Makyo Toitsusen on sega megadrive/genesis where he drops and kicks energy ball and it travels like Terry's ground wave. Something like rock with dust behind it could work. So there is a way to tie projectiles to him if needed, it's difficult in SF without any. Maybe it's a good idea to make one.